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Coming Out Mormon

Jim Burroway

July 8th, 2009
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Ben
July 8th, 2009 | LINK

Really sweet and touching. I wish my Baptist minister father had been this affirming when I came out.

Chris
July 8th, 2009 | LINK

I can’t thank you enough for sharing this video. I was raised Mormon as well. I didn’t go on a mission but I understand everything this young man has gone through. It has touched me, thank you.

Leonard Drake
July 8th, 2009 | LINK

Thank you SO much for sharing this video!

cowboy
July 8th, 2009 | LINK

I had been wanting to view this video for a couple of days. (It was posted on another blog.) I never found the time until now and I just barely finished watching it. Rod & Connie are good friends of mine. I’ve known them for years. What’s remarkable: I didn’t know they had a gay son. I was floored when I first recognized Connie on my tiny iPhone screen and then squinted to see that it was, indeed, Rod in the video too.

Small world.

Carlos
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

some help please folks. is there another ‘working’ link to this video as it is not available to all parts of the world, and i’d really like to see it…

James
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

This film misrepresents the LDS Church’s views on homosexuality. The LDS Church does NOT teach that practicing homosexuality will send one to hell, because the LDS Church doesn’t even believe in hell! According to Mormonism, virtually all (excepting an extremely small minority not including gays) will inherit a better place than this Earth after death.

Furthermore, the boyfriend in this film describes the parents as having looked past their beliefs in order to love their son. This sets up a false dichotomy. An LDS parent is perfectly able to cling to their Mormon beliefs while simultaneously loving a gay child. It happens all the time. Mormons are not opposed to loving and caring for gay individuals.

Pat
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

James, I’m not an expert of LDS Church dogma. However, unless you are saying Cody is lying, he is giving his perspective what it was like growing up Mormon, what he believed Mormon’s views were through his interaction with his family and congregation. Maybe there is no hell in Mormon theology, perhaps it was an “if it looks like hell, sounds like hell…” thing. Perhaps if the Mormon Church is more accepting of homosexuality as you claim, they need to do a better job of showing it, so that people like Cody aren’t on the verge of suicide.

Furthermore, the boyfriend in this film describes the parents as having looked past their beliefs in order to love their son. This sets up a false dichotomy. An LDS parent is perfectly able to cling to their Mormon beliefs while simultaneously loving a gay child. It happens all the time. Mormons are not opposed to loving and caring for gay individuals.

Not quite. As Cody said, when his father told him that he loved him, Cody was hoping it was more than some obligation that he loves his son. It was more about acceptance of his son, and his partner as well. I don’t know whether this is looking “past their beliefs,” but apparently the partner thought so.

cowboy
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

James,

Perhaps you need to change the color of your glasses.

I know many (I am afraid to count) friends and associates who are Recovering-Mormons who have committed suicide. Just last month we had a kid shoot himself in the head and his parents were in complete denial until at the funeral the Father broke down and admitted it was his son’s struggle with homosexuality that caused his untimely death.

There have been plays written about gay Mormon angst. That segment in Angels in America probably hit home in many Mormon households in the world. I know it struck a cord with me. Then we just recently had the play: Facing East by the once beloved Mormon author C. L. Pearson. It’s not something we should say Mormons and their dogma have handled quite well. Right? The popular theatrical play about Sister Dottie Dixon was a retelling of several examples of growing up gay in a rural Utah community. It was funny but the play’s core message was about Mormon intolerance and the strife it creates with people who are gay.

There is something wrong with your perception of reality when someone thinks being gay and being a Mormon is so blithely characterized as being not nonplussed.

Gay Mormons have never and will never be accepted as equals in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. You need to provide examples of where gay Mormons (even celibate gays) have any sort of acceptance in an LDS Ward. Good luck in finding examples.

Tell me why there isn’t even a gay singles Ward? Any attempt (like a Bishop in San Francisco tried once) to make an outreach program for gays was summarily snuffed out. Why?

Then, tell me why a gay Mormon would want to sit in an LDS Ward chapel?

The most anti-gay people roaming this planet are Mormons. They may not perform public executions of their gay members like some other religious sect but they sufficiently instill enough self-hatred with spreading demeaning anti-gay propaganda that most of their gay members either leave the LDS Church or they kill themselves…which is ultimately the same result as executing them.

This past year will not be forgotten in the annals of LDS History. And it won’t be good.

Ben in Oakland
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

“Furthermore, the boyfriend in this film describes the parents as having looked past their beliefs in order to love their son. This sets up a false dichotomy. An LDS parent is perfectly able to cling to their Mormon beliefs while simultaneously loving a gay child. It happens all the time. Mormons are not opposed to loving and caring for gay individuals.”

and of course, it all depends on what you mean by love.

For example, love the sinner and hate the sin. If that is an example of love, i much prefer the hate. At least it is honest.

Maajour
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

When I came out, to myself, I had a emotional moment with God. I heard a voice bellowing in my heart and in my head stating, “I have always loved you. I have never judged you. You judged yourself and allowed others to judge you. I have loved you the whole time.”

I spend years “biding my time” because hell was not acceptable and suicide was not an option.

That video was truthful and honest. I feel bad that some LW’s seem to need to pick apart the details when the message is about love and loving yourself. God loves us. He doesn’t care about gay or straight. He cares about love.

Maajour
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

On the other hand, it is good that the truth about church theology gets exposed. But claiming that the young man doesn’t understand Mormonism is attacking him. We all know that the religions teach condemnation and judgment. Whatever definition, “hell” is both of these.

James
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

Hello folks. I wasn’t expecting such swift vitriol!

Just to clarify my statements, I don’t know whether or not Cody was consciously misrepresenting LDS doctrine in the video or not. I have no way of knowing that. What I do know, is that Cody thought he was going to hell and that this belief could not have been something he learned from Mormonism. Mormonism simply doesn’t teach it. In a nutshell, Cody misrepresented LDS doctrines, whether he did it purposely or not.

The LDS Church (of which I am a member) certainly does love the sinner while disapproving of the sin. I can’t do anything about it if you don’t like that kind of love. I also disapprove of stealing, but wouldn’t stop loving a family member if he committed theft. We quite unabashadly disapprove of acting on homosexual tendencies. We believe it is a sin. But, we also believe that like any other sin it can be repented of and forgiven.

I have a brother and a sister who are Mormon and who both struggle with “same sex attraction.” It is hard for them, very hard. It is hard on the family too. One of them has become bitter with the Church and left it. The other has not.

I’m not going to comment on any other arguments and questions raised by you folks. I only wanted to point out where the video went wrong on LDS beliefs.

Timothy Kincaid
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

James,

The church to which you belong showed my its “love” by spending 40 million dollars (most of it from Mormons) and hundreds of hours (80-90% from Mormons) to change civil law to deny my pastor the right to proclaim me married in my church. And here you are showing me your “love” by comparing me to a thief.

To quote Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Maajour
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

I have studied the Bible for years and I don’t think that the phrase, “love the sinner hate the sin” is an accurate portrayal of Jesus Christ’s religion. These trite little sayings are from our generation and usually from people that can’t embrace the entire concept of love. New Testament John said, where there is fear, love is not perfected. Jesus said judge not, lest you be judged. He also said God desires mercy and compassion over judgement and condemnation.

Where is the wiggle room in these statements? In the above biblical statements, how can you justify loving the sinner, hate the sin? Mercy and compassion do not have room for “hate”.

Further, Jesus said that there is neither male nor female in heaven. There is no taking or giving of marriage. Jesus did not ever make a statement about homosexuality.

Paul stated that murderers, homosexuals, etc. would not be allowed in heaven. That word in the original means male prostitute in the temple.

In my opinion, these little sayings are from people trying to protect God on earth. They are afraid if they don’t act or speak in the proper manner, then God will judge them. Perfect love casts out all fear.

Maajour
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

By the way, “vitriol”?

You, James, attacked the young man.

You, James, threw the first stone.

You should go to your closet and pray for guidance.

I agree with Montoya.

Jason D
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

“In my opinion, these little sayings are from people trying to protect God on earth. They are afraid if they don’t act or speak in the proper manner, then God will judge them. Perfect love casts out all fear.”

I think you hit something there. It would appear that some of these folks act as though they are the ones in danger of hell, not us, not me.
It’s not too hard to believe. A friend of mine indicated that her church, growing up, laid a huge guilt trip on you. Basically if someone goes to hell because you didn’t tell them about Jesus, and try to convert them — it’s as much your fault they are burning as it is their own fault for not believing.

James
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

I want to clarify that my only reason for continuing the discussion is for the purpose of clarifying LDS beliefs and in defending criticisms that stem from interpretations of the Bible. I have no interest in questions about “gay singles wards” (as cowboy mentioned) or in Prop 8.

Maajour:

You will notice that I did not say “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Those are your words, not mine. I also should point out that Mormonism is not a strictly biblical faith. We have scripture beyond the Bible.

That being said, I absolutely agree that love, a unifying indwelling love between free agents, was and is a primary message of Jesus Christ. That love certainly extends to individuals with same sex attraction.

I do not “judge” homosexuals. I do not “condemn” homosexuals. I do not fear homosexuals. I do not view them as being less than I. I view them as normal human beings with struggles that I don’t share, just as I have struggles that they don’t share. We each receive our own lot.

Concerning Jesus’ statement about there being neither male nor female in heaven, I invite you to tell me where Jesus said that, as I am unfamiliar with that saying.

Concerning Jesus’ statements about marriage in heaven, I have to disagree with your interpretation. This forum may not be the best for launching into a complex debate over the interpretation of the passage, but suffice to say that biblical scholars recognize that this passage does not teach that there will be no marriage in heaven. If you are interested in a dicussion of that subject let me know and we can exchange emails.

As for Paul’s statements, my theological views concerning homosexuality do not have root in Paul.

I appreciate the cordial tone that some of you have maintained. I want to further emphasize that I meant no disrespect to Cody or his boyfriend by pointing out errors in their understanding of LDS views. I certainly wasn’t “casting stones” as the saying goes. I was only trying to make sure the facts are known.

Thanks.

cowboy
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

First, I will apologize for being condescending to James.

I’m not sure if James knows this topic was hashed out earlier during the height of the Proposition 8 and the Mormon influence therein last November. It’s becoming trite. I’m sure James’ gay siblings do not appreciate the love he exudes when he thinks they are afflicted with something akin to mental retardation (like the Mormon General Authority who co-wrote about homos…you know, the fake news article with Dallin Oaks). I don’t wonder why James‘ brother left the church. It’s hard to sit with a group of people who think the whole of your life should be without being loved or without loving someone.

I’m going on a vacation tonight. I’ll be with a few other Mormons and there are probably a couple of them who are Temple-Recommend-carrying Mormons in my group. I’ll be with people who respects me (I hope) as a “normal” guy who just happens to be gay. They want me to be happy and maybe they are finding it a tad uncomfortable but they realize I need my pursuit of happiness in this life too.

Maajour
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

In the book of Matthew, Jesus responds to a question about seven brothers having had the same wife. Whose wife will she be in the resurrection?

Matthew 22:29-30 ” You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.”

In the book of Galatians, Paul says that the law is a tutor that brings us to faith; which justifies us in Christ. WE are no longer under the law. We are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. After faith comes, we are no longer under a tutor. He then says:

Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

It is my opinion that churchs are unwittingly living under the law when establishing doctrine about homosexuality. These policies and doctrines have the affect of keeping people away from faith. I think that gay or straight, faith is the end-all goal for all. Galatians passage clearly says that ALL are justified by one thing: Faith.

Maajour
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

Jason D wrote back to my comment, Basically if someone goes to hell because you didn’t tell them about Jesus, and try to convert them — it’s as much your fault they are burning as it is their own fault for not believing.”

You are correct. That is the other part of my observation that I didn’t blog, but, is crucial to understanding why people feel the need to protect and represent God. They think that it is as much their fault if you don’t believe.

Jason, that revelation came to me one day when I was trying to understand why people feel the need to impose their beliefs. They are afraid God will judge them. In essence, this is a “good works”.

I will add that in the early stage of born againism, people suddenly see what they believe is the truth and feel compelled to save their friends, family and the world. Maturity eventually gives way to this unbridled enthusiasm and the believer soon realizes that the more they know, the less they know.

Grandma said that gays should be treated equally because, …they are people.

Grandma also said that the more that you say, the more it will be used against you. Try to say nice things.

Timothy Kincaid
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

I respect that we have opinions about scripture. But for the sake of sanity, let’s please not debate the theological point as to whether there will be marriage in heaven.

As to punishment for others’ “sin”, it is a common belief that “God has his hand of protection on America because it is a Godly nation”. Many believe that if gay people are given rights and equality under law, this will so offend God that he will punish them for letting it happen.

Frankly, while I know some truly believe this, for many it’s just a way to justify passing judgment and coercive laws to control their neighbors and force their own religion on them.

Maajour,

Grandma was one smart cookie

Maajour
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy,
I agree with you that arguing about marriage is pointless. In response to James asking for scriptural references, My position is that if the Bible states that there isn’t male or female, nor marriage, then why does the church take such a strong stand under the guise of protecting families? They don’t really understand the Scriptures or God. Anyway, your request is acknowledged.

And the real reason I wrote is to thank you for praising my Grandma. She turned 100 years old and still lives at home. When I told her I was gay, she said, “well, you can’t help that. Your born that way.” I love my grandma more than words can express. Thank you.

Tim Seattle, WA
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

Why do gay people care what Mormons think and do, and why do Mormons care what gay people think and do?

The answer is they do not. Until, that belief in what there doing gets pushed onto the other…

The easiest way to look at this is to reduce it down to just two people…

Joe is Mormon, Kevin is not and he is Gay.

Joe does not have the right to go to Kevin’s house and teach Kevin’s kids about his beliefs, and make Kevin’s kids follow the traditions and customs of a Mormon society.

Likewise…

Kevin does not have the right to go to Joe’s house and teach Joe’s kids about his beliefs, and make Joe’s Kids follow the traditions and customs of LGBT Society.

If you really care about anyone’s rights, you wouldn’t allow Joe or Kevin to do either…. So why are you asking government to do it for you?

As far as kids being born into the church and being gay… Every single parent in this world is going to deal with that 100% differently at different times and places in their own lives…that’s only natural…what is key for any parent to remember is the commercial I heard on the radio in 1993 when I first joined the church, starts out with a parent yelling at a child…then the child being unhappy…then the ad says “You should develop an adult like relationship with your child, because they are going to be adults a lot longer then they are going to be a child” Such wisdom the church has taught me over the years…

Emily K
July 9th, 2009 | LINK

No, Tim, it’s not quite as simple as that. Kevin the Gay can’t go over there and push your Mormon kids into “LGBT Society” because there is no such thing. There are colorful Pride parades you see pictures of in newspapers and hear about “outrageous” things being done in San Francisco, but you can’t teach someone how to be gay or how to live in LGBT Society. Not even all gays think gay sex is okay. Some stay celibate for personal or religious reasons, just like straights.

The idea isn’t about “teaching beliefs.” It’s about actively campaigning the United Stations Government – as the LDS Church has done – to force people to live in a land of laws that adheres to Mormon Society.

On the flip side, Kevin the Gay hasn’t gone to the ballot box, campaigned, or donated money to any causes in an attempt to ban Mormonism or the ability to freely live in a Mormon Society without unequal treatment.

[And why do gays care what mormons do? because:]

Mormons HAVE, however, done all those aforementioned things in an attempt to keep queers second-class citizens.

This isn’t about “unorthodox” behavior, people. This is about being punished under the law for falling deeply in love and spending your life with someone who has the same set of gonads as you. The idea of two men or two women being together in a loving romantic relationship might make many Mormon people feel “icky” but good lord, grow up and deal with it. We’re not screwing one another in front of your kids. Only closet cases who are “straight” (and often married) do that.

Pat
July 10th, 2009 | LINK

I do not “judge” homosexuals. I do not “condemn” homosexuals. I do not fear homosexuals. I do not view them as being less than I. I view them as normal human beings with struggles that I don’t share, just as I have struggles that they don’t share. We each receive our own lot.

James, the problem is two-fold. One is, the stealing example you had elsewhere, one struggle that can and should be corrected. It is simply not the case for homosexuals. Also, my guess is that your struggles, whatever they are, have not caused you to ponder suicide, or even leave the Mormon Church.

I want to further emphasize that I meant no disrespect to Cody or his boyfriend by pointing out errors in their understanding of LDS views. I certainly wasn’t “casting stones” as the saying goes. I was only trying to make sure the facts are known.

And the facts are that Cody and others, no matter what the LDS views are, still felt like outcasts from the church, enough so that have either considered or acted on suicide.

I suppose the “love the sinner, hate the sin” (or whatever you want to call it) attitude is better than outright condemnation. But for Cody, and most of us, it is simply unacceptable. If not, why not place all that shame on straight children as well, and let’s see how wonderfully things progress.

Tim Seattle, I’m all for staying out of each others’ business. But it’s different when it comes to children. I think we all have an interest in making sure children are not abused, emotionally or physically, even if done under a guise of religion. I’m not saying that the gay Mormons who have considered suicide were abused, but it seems like something should be done to prevent this from happening.

James
July 10th, 2009 | LINK

Hi cowboy. I accept your apology.

Hi Maajour. As I’ve previously stated, I’m following the discussion only insofar as we are discussing theology and biblical interpretation.

Concerning Jesus’ teachings in Matt 22, the issue, as you point out, is levirate marriage. Jesus’ response is that in the ressurrection levirate marriage will no longer be an issue because, like angels, nobody will die. Levirate marriage was instituted precisely because husbands die leaving behind their widows. Therefore, in the resurrection “they” (those participating in levirate marriage) will no longer be getting married (in the case of men) or be giving each other away in marriage (in the case of women).

Paul’s message was concerning the here and now, not life after death. He is speaking in the present tense. It is simply a message of the universality of Christ’s atonement. Since Paul was speaking in the present, and there were clearly still males and females, slaves and freemen, Jews and Greeks, we can safely conclude that Paul wasn’t teaching anything akin to a genderless society. Paul’s message was about the unifying force of the gospel, bringing together and making equal people from all walks of life. I couldn’t agree more with him.

Thanks.

AHLDuke
July 10th, 2009 | LINK

James, as a practicing Mormon (but one who rejects any anti-gay rhetoric), I take issue with your statement that LDS doctrine was misrepresented in this video. The references to hell make this video understandable to its target audience- non-Mormons. They would have no idea what it meant if he was to say- “if I was gay, then I would go to the telestial kingdom.” While hell in terms of fire and brimstone does not exist in Mormon doctrine, distance and separation from God does, and this is the equivalent of hell in Mormon doctrine. You are playing with semantics.

Ben in Oakland
July 10th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy– quoting the princess bride. Priceless.

I have to take thek ids to the vet. If i have time, I tihnk I will donate a little time to James so that perhaps he can understand what love the sinner hate the sin means to us gay people.

It doesn’t mean what you think it means.

By the way, James, you wrote:

“The LDS Church (of which I am a member) certainly does love the sinner while disapproving of the sin. I can’t do anything about it if you don’t like that kind of love. I also disapprove of stealing, but wouldn’t stop loving a family member if he committed theft. We quite unabashadly disapprove of acting on homosexual tendencies. We believe it is a sin. But, we also believe that like any other sin it can be repented of and forgiven.”

and then you wrote: You will notice that I did not say “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Those are your words, not mine.”

hmmmmmmmmm.

Regan DuCasse
July 10th, 2009 | LINK

I cannot and won’t make any religious arguments here. They cannot satisfy the fact that we are not a society that enforces religious beliefs.
And we shouldn’t be.

This young man was on the verge of suicide and there is no way HE misrepresented his life’s teaching and social network.
It is the dominant culture that burdens gay people with a yoke that misrepresents THEM.

It is religious communities in particular who are very selective and hypocritical when it comes to how gay men and women are to fit into society at large and it’s religious communities who demand to continue to dictate the terms of gay lives even against the laws of the Constitution and it’s protections.
And no other citizen has to be treated like that, regardless of how their sins are interpreted.

I see a Mormon family who was nearly on the verge of losing their handsome son. And because of their ACCEPTANCE of him, their love for him, they got TWO handsome men to call sons in their lives.

People with the real depth of love in their souls know what it is and how to give it and interpret it. They know the difference between that and control to the point of abuse.

In gay lives, and the interpretation of God, the dominant culture has made God into the image of an abusive parent. And themselves the spoiled siblings among God’s children.

And all I have to see is what acceptance and connection to love and family really does. And that’s enough for me.
And it should be for anyone else. Because the interpretation of happiness, certainly isn’t and shouldn’t be up for debate at all.

Ben in Oakland
July 10th, 2009 | LINK

Regan– as always, bang on.

I don’t think I will be writing to James after all. You said what I would say, but much nicer.

anything i could say after that would be besides the point.

James
July 10th, 2009 | LINK

Hi gang. As before, I’m only going to interact with points of theological interest. That being said, I have read every word of your posts and appreciate your views.

Hi AHLDuke. I view the issue precisely opposite the way you do! From my perspective, because the target audience is non-Mormon, Cody’s implication that his faith taught him he would go to “hell” immediately conjures up ideas of fire and brimstone in the minds of ignorant viewers (ignorant of course in the sense of simply not knowing).

Had Cody mentioned “hell” to a Mormon audience, it would have been fine. But suggesting to a non-Mormon audience that Mormons believe in “hell” simply isn’t enough. Any non-Mormon watching will come away with the impression that Mormons believe in a “hell” like the Protestant/Catholic hell. That version of “hell” is universally assumed unless clarified. Unfortunately, Cody didn’t clarify it.

I would definitely have preferred that Cody be more precise. He may not have needed to say “telestial” or “terrestrial” (Mormon jargon for all you non-Mormons reading this) but he could have worded it better. I am not normally a cynical individual, but in this case I can’t help but think that Cody knew that his audience wouldn’t have made the distinction between Mormon “hell” and the “hell” that everyone else imagines. By simply saying “hell” without providing nuance misleads his audience in a direction more sympathetic to his cause.

I also take issue with your (AHLDuke’s) view that separation from God in Mormonism is the equivalent of Protestant/Catholic “hell”. While in our in-house jargon we might refer to it as “hell”, it definitely is not equivalent to the “hell” of mainstream Christianity that Cody’s audience imagines.

For those unfamiliar with LDS doctrine, the “telestial kingdom” is the lowest degree of reward/punishment that one can receive after this life, excepting the extremely rare “sons of perdition”.

Joseph Smith wrote, “And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding” (for those unfamiliar, this is found in LDS Scriptures, D&C 76:89).

According to the above quote, the “hell” that Cody speaks of doesn’t sound too bad to me!

Lest someone get the wrong impression. Mormonism does not automatically assign homosexuals to the “telestial kingdom” or to any post-mortal reward/punishment for that matter. God makes that decision!

Thanks again, and sorry for the lengthy post.

Ben in Oakland
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

” As before, I’m only going to interact with points of theological interest.”

In other words, I am interested in arguing only the unarguable. the damage my churvch does to people it does not know and clearly knows nothing about is of no interest to me.

Love the sinner and hate the sin? Why does it always feel like love the sin and hate the sinner?

Burr
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

“God makes that decision!”

Cop out.

Mormons and other discriminatory Christian sects constantly purport to already know God’s decision on such matters, which explains their political activism.

Ben in Oakland
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

Burr, I love quoting myself. As i once said, God is what you use to justify what you cannot justify by any other means.

Considering that the mormons were hounded from New York and Illinois and everywhere else until they finally got to Utah, you would think that they would have an appreciation for persecution based upon religious belief.

Come to think of it, I guess they do!!!

Richard W. Fitch
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

….and they do it so very well!!

Penguinsaur
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

“Mormonism does not automatically assign homosexuals to the “telestial kingdom” or to any post-mortal reward/punishment for that matter.”

it does however automatically assign them to be second class citizens and does everything possible to take their rights away.

Maajour
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

To Ben in Oakland: You wrote …”and then you wrote: You will notice that I did not say “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Those are your words, not mine.”
hmmmmmmmmm.”

I know that the LW minced words with me and I just let it go. But, you, YOU disected that LW and the truth shined through!

And you wrote …”In other words, I am interested in arguing only the unarguable. the damage my churvch does to people it does not know and clearly knows nothing about is of no interest to me.”

I went back and read what the LW said to me from a “theological only” point of view, and, I thought the same as you. I didn’t even bother to consider his points. And the reason I dismissed his theology is due to the following statement from
Regan Ducasse: …I see a Mormon family who was nearly on the verge of losing their handsome son. And because of their ACCEPTANCE….” and Regan wrote this: …”This young man was on the verge of suicide and there is no way HE misrepresented his life’s teaching and social network.
It is the dominant culture that burdens gay people with a yoke that misrepresents THEM.”

The point isn’t about theology. It is about a suicide in making. A suicide born from theology. Mormon or Christian, IT IS NOT a godly theology.

Thanks Ben. It does seem that they love the sin and hate the sinner. Doesn’t it? And Regan: good insight to the real issues. Indeed, Carry on.

Notes From All Over For Week Ended July 11 | Times & Seasons, An Onymous Mormon Blog
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

[…] Video: RM Comes Out to His Parents […]

Ben in Oakland
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

Thank you, Maajour. But what does LW mean?

I used to buy that idea– we don’t hate you, we just hate your sin. It accorded with the Christians (primarily) I knew, all of whom I would have described as good people. But then I began to realize thay didn’t know me, or indeed, anything about me, or homosexuality, or gay people. The more I read in the bible, the more I also understood that they didn’t know much about that, either. I especially loved the ones who told me that they weren’t judging me, they were just reporting what the Good Book so clearly says. That’s not judging at all.

These same good Christians (again, usually) are always happy to tell me how much they love me, and then follow it up with comments like ‘cancer on society’ and the whole vicious panoply of anti-gay, homophobic, lying rants. They will tell me how much they love me right before they tell me how much they hate my child-molesting, disease spreading, country-destroying, religion-despising, marriage-compromising, military demoralizing ways. Eventually, I realized that 1) it allows them to maintain their self-image as loving, kind, gentle, godly people; and 2) it allows others, whose sensibilities and sensitivities, especially of the legalistic sort, are not so refined, to do the hating, while those who love me so much can stand idly by and claim no responsibility for the consequences.

It is a win-win for everyone but the victims.

Maajour
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

To Ben in Oakland:

You are great and thanks for speaking out. BTW, LW means Letter Writer.

It is my opinion that it is evil for Christians to call gayness a sin. We cannot repent. We are still gay the next day. It is evil to let someone think that suicide seems the only option for the “sin” of being gay. I can stop stealing, but I can’t stop being gay.

I agree with you Ben on all your points. I too believed the lies at one time. Oddly, when I decided to love ALL of me, including my “sin”, I learned that God never judged me at all. God loved ALL of me. I judged me.

The Bible takes on a whole new meaning when it is read from a love point of view. The Christians who are using Bible-based bashing justifications cannot be verified by the Bible. I still am amazed and I truly marvel, let me shout it out louder, I ABSOLUTELY INCREDULOUSLY MARVEL at the blatant disregard for Jesus’ statements to NOT judge one another. Judge on they do.

When I try to balance the good acts of the Church against their attacks on gay persons, I think I then also understand Revelations a little better when John said (I will paraphrase) “To the churches: You have done some things right, but you have utterly failed in other equally important ways.”

However, for me, the loss of my church relationships and the loss of that love has hurt me greatly.

Setting all the religion aside, in America, we have the guarantee of CIVIL RIGHTS for ALL. What about that? What does ALL mean? It means everyone. People. Period.

Thanks Ben for your insights.

Maajour
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

To James:

I mean this with all due respect, but when you coin the phrase, “gang”, I am not a part of your gang. We are not on the same team. Perhaps a simpler greeting could be found?

I wish you well none the less.

Maajour
July 11th, 2009 | LINK

To the Editors of Box Turtle Bulletin
And
To Whoever posted the Notes from All Over Mormon Land.

I went to the Mormon link and read this story:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705316062/LDS-seminary-principal-arrested.html

First, it read like soft, but really hot, porn! I wondered, why on earth would they print so much details? Ah, repression will always find its way to seep out…whether it is the principal of the school having sex with a student, or, or, get ready, it is the detailed writings of a reporter who is severely repressed.

Second, I read a comment warning readers about the heterosexual agenda! I just had to laugh! I posted a “serious” comment affirming the warning that there really is a secret agenda in which man are trying to have sex with the opposite sex. I didn’t see it get posted, so I guess the monitor censored me. They do warn you.

Third, the LW’s of the Deseret News are something else. A handful were insightful, but the majority were not.

Conclusion: It makes a person really appreciate the LW’s on Box Turtle Bulletin. Seriously. The BTB letter writers are intelligent and make reasonable statements. Go look for yourself!

To BTB LW’s: good work.

Ben in Oakland
July 12th, 2009 | LINK

Maajour– I went to the link and found yet another story about how the heteros are gonna get your children.

most amusing of all were the combined comments of those who blame it all on Satan, and the others who say well, he hasn’t been convicted yet, and the others who say we should not be judging the man.

My guess is, put it all together, add water, and if the guy is found not guilty, then I guess someone owes Satan an apology.

Timothy Kincaid
July 13th, 2009 | LINK

More evidence that heterosexuals recruit!

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