40 responses

  1. Ray
    May 19, 2010

    “I’m curious if they too wish for misery and tragedy to fall upon the lives of gay and lesbian people.”

    You don’t really wonder. Nor do I. We already know that the least of troubles for a gay or lesbian person is seen as a “victory” for the ex-gay proponents.

    Say, for example, your kids slugs someone who was taunting them at school for having gay dads and the school expelled your kid for hitting someone while the minister and parents of the kid doing the taunting thank the school principal for getting rid of “that troublemaker.”

    Victory! See what a shambles the lives of gays are? See? See? See? We told you so!

  2. andrew
    May 19, 2010

    it takes a special kind of perversion to rejoice in the end of a 22 yr relationship, and this from the movement that wants to protect marriage.

    pray that your son becomes miserable … just … why?

    it sort of vaguely makes sense granted their premise (that through earthly misery they might be saved from hellfire brought about by teh gay), but rejoicing over another’s suffering but it advances your agenda is just, well, evil.

  3. Timothy Kincaid
    May 19, 2010

    This is disgusting. Nauseating.

    I’ve yet to hear of anyone gay who – when hearing of the breakup of a marriage due to one of the spouses coming out – doesn’t recognize the pain felt by the straight spouse and feel for them. We may agree that it was necessary, but we don’t discount the hurt, betrayal, and rejection that the spouse feels.

    It takes very little imagination to recognize that “they both” probably is the wishful thinking of the parents and that in a very short time one of the lesbians will regret this decision. We have a lot of history from which to make that assumption.

    And then what?

    I guess that’s the difference between us and Alan. We genuinely care about the pain of others and the breakup of relationships.

  4. L. Junius Brutus
    May 19, 2010

    “pray that your son becomes miserable … just … why?”

    Out of love, of course. The justification Christian fundamentalists use for everything. It looks less despicable (to them, at least) if you call it love.

  5. Paul in Canada
    May 19, 2010

    I’m continually amazed how ‘christians’ can actually write this way, never mind believe that this is an appropriate expression of the great commandment: do unto others as you’d have them do unto you….

    …oh my!

    As I read through these many posts and blogs about how perverted these folks have made christianity, it challenges my own faith. I pray God will give me the grace to continue to seek him, despite these misarable bastards.

  6. —-
    May 19, 2010

    They’ll probably be back together (or with other women) after they go back to their senses.

  7. KZ
    May 19, 2010

    Wow. These people never fail to piss me off. For every story of a homosexual couple breaking off a LTR to “come to Christ,” I hope there are a hundred who are wise enough to see through the bullsh*t and thumb their noses at these morons!

  8. Eddie89
    May 19, 2010

    I think that many Christians see our current “human” lives as only temporary and the real goal is “eternal” life with God in heaven.

    So, being LGBT dooms you to eternal torture in hell and being straight means you get to go to heaven.

    Maybe that’s why they rejoice?

    In their minds, who cares how miserable you are here on Earth as long as you do what it takes to get to heaven.

    Kind of like how the Islamic terrorists don’t give a wit about blowing themselves up and ending their lives here on Earth, because they will be richly rewarded and live forever in heaven.

  9. Lynn David
    May 19, 2010

    I imagine after George Rekers they had to have a pyrrhic victory of a sort to soothe themselves.

  10. Lindoro Almaviva
    May 19, 2010

    I wanted to “like” his page just so i could post this, but then again, what is the use. If anyone knows him you are welcomed to forward my comment:

    Have you told all your subscribers the truth? That you are actually not straight but that you struggle with your attractions every day? If you were truly straight you would not struggle with finding other met attractive and you certainly would not fear what your reaction would be.

    Have you told them that you have to use a private stall in a public bathroom every time you go pee so you do not have to even think about looking at the penis of the guy standing next to you? If you were really straight the sight of another man’s penis would not incite in you feelings of terror at the prospect of feeling pleasure.

    Have you told them that you fear the moment that you might meet a man who you might not be able to resist? If you were really straight you would fear meeting a woman that could lure you away from your wife and turn you into an adulterer, but that is not your fear, right? Why fear another man and his strong sexual attraction rather than a woman? Aren’t you really straight?

    Have you told them about how most of your erotic dreams involve having fortuitous sex with another man but almost never involve a woman? Have you told them how this ruins your day and how you just want to crawl under your bed and not come back until the next day, just so you do not come in contact with another male and be “vulnerable”?

    Have you told them how several times, in order to “cross the finish line” you have thought about doing it with another man? Are they aware of how guilty that makes you feel to the point of fearing that you might become dependent on that image for the rest of your sexual life with your wife?

    have you told them how and why you keep that gym membership? Have you told them it is because it is the only place where you can be around naked males and thus “face your demons”? Do they know that it makes you proud because you “didn’t look” but secretly are grateful that you had the strength not to?

    A true and tested straight man does not struggle with any of these. A true and tested straight man struggles with seeing a naked woman and be aroused by her. A true and tested straight man struggles with Playboy & Penthouse and the images that come from it, not the female oriented versions of these magazines. For a true and tested straight male, being surrounded by naked males is not a chore, or a chance to demonstrate anything, now, being surrounded by naked females is another thing.

    Do all your subscribers and followers know this?

  11. cd
    May 19, 2010

    pray that your son becomes miserable … just … why?

    Because human sacrifices to the gods still have to be made. Tweenage sons are apparently especially popular with patriarchal deities. (And their priests.)

    I thought for a while that the ex-gay thing was primarily a sincere effort to deal with homosexuality, how ever badly.

    At this point I think it’s essentially a set of destructive religious cults and scams that prey on a particularly vulnerable and gullible clientele.

  12. ebltn69
    May 20, 2010

    Well I guess al gay people will be happy when the ends of you days are here, and maybe, just maybe you will be with you god. If his is really existed.

  13. Jason D
    May 20, 2010

    praying for the misery of others is just plain evil.

    Doesn’t matter if it’s a gay person or a murderer, praying for someone’s misery is just plain abhorrent.

    What part of “love thy neighbor as thyself” don’t these people understand?

  14. dan
    May 20, 2010

    Ironically, the process Mr. Haley describes of initial freedom followed much later by emptiness and unhappiness is very much what gays/lesbians encounter after becomming born again(and is common to straight believers as well). In a conversion there is the initial euphoria, relief and new focus which often lasts a few years. It is often followed by a period where you realize you are the same person you were prior to your conversion. This is followed by disappointment, emptiness, guilt.
    And as I’ve said, this is a fairly common experience. The back half of every church is filled with people who can’t leave for one reason or another but are wondering what is wrong with them.

  15. Ben in Oakland
    May 20, 2010

    “What part of “love thy neighbor as thyself” don’t these people understand?”

    ummmmmmm….all of it?

  16. Western1
    May 20, 2010

    Boy you all really miss the point don’t you?

    Her family, who loves them both very much, no doubt, was praying for BOTH of them to come to Christ. They did! Once this happens you begin to have a desire to deny your flesh and obey God’s will. The break-up was inevitable. Good for them! Why are people so willing to celebrate self-identified gays and gay relationships but so dead against gays who decide to live a life of self-denial and pursuit of God? I respect everyone. Even those who choose to break-up for religious convictions. We should question our motives.

  17. JC
    May 20, 2010

    It is interesting for this is a prayer my parents prayed for me when I first came out in the late 70′s. I would like to say (most don’t want to hear) that in being a part of the ex-gay movement for many many years there was no harm done to me and in fact many great and wonderful things occurred in my life and in the lives of most that were a part (at least the programs I was involved with). But I do know for some the experience was in fact bad which saddens me.

    But having come out again after being in church and the ex gay movement for 20 plus years I as well know the struggle one has to deal with in reconciling their faith and their sexuality. Sadly many good friends part company and the sense of community that had been developed is dissolved. This is probably the hardest time for many that come out after being part of this movement. For many they leave the faith all together and for most their is the unlearning and relearning that has to occur to move forward not an easy thing and what I will say is probably the hardest and the most damaging aspect of the ex-gay movement.

    What I know is that for most in a monotheistic faith base community (Christian, Jew, Muslim) there will not be acceptance of us in the lgbt communities. I have to accept that some will not understand how one is gay/lesbian/trans and be OK that we will always have differences.

    For me I know that I have to get to know men and women in everyday communities and through those relationships doors and bridges are developed where change slowly occurs. Not easy and not for everyone but this makes me involved in the process, makes me deal with my anger, fear and bitterness and moves me and them out of the ghettos that I and others so easily create around ourselves.

    As I look back on the first time I came out in the in the mid-west it amazes me how much has changed. Being gay was hidden and only truly seen in darkness (a bar). Now in that area of town they fly the rainbow flag. Change takes time and in our instant culture we want it now! But change is happening and I have to ask how am I being changed in the process to be a better human being in a world that is getting more polarized. For whatever all that is worth that is my two cents worth of thinking and typing.

  18. Timothy Kincaid
    May 20, 2010

    JC,

    Thank you for sharing your story. And for reminding us that ex-gay ministries can be in many ways beneficial to the participants (though not very effective at turning them into heterosexuals).

    I would encourage you, however, to rethink your concerns about being accepted by monotheistic religion. This is, I believe, too broad of a statement.

    The majority of Jews in America (Reform, Reconstruction, and increasingly Conservative) are very accepting of LGBT people.

    And hardly a month goes by when some Christian denomination does not take a step closer to acceptance and inclusion. Currently, same-sex marriages may be conducted in Episcopal Church and United Church of Christ and can be blessed by Evangelical Lutheran Churches.

    Yes, some will not understand, but increasingly this is not the “Christian position”. It is, as you said, slow. But we are gradually stepping into the light.

  19. JFE
    May 20, 2010

    I wonder if Alan thanks God that those two in Malawi will now be sentence to 14 years in hard labor. That will cause a lot of Malawians to think twice about being gay!

  20. TJMcFisty
    May 20, 2010

    “Why are people so willing to celebrate self-identified gays and gay relationships but so dead against gays who decide to live a life of self-denial and pursuit of God?”

    Because they, in turn, join/form ex-gay ministries to annoy the rest of us.

    Must be so nice to be straight and come to God. He already loves you without changing a thing.

  21. justsearching
    May 20, 2010

    “Her family, who loves them both very much, no doubt, was praying for BOTH of them to come to Christ.”

    Her family seemed to have loved her (and I kinda doubt they loved the other gal) conditionally and felt very uncomfortable with the relationship. I’m guessing the family did more than just pray to try to guilt this pair of women into giving up their relationship.

    “Once [one accepts Christ] you begin to have a desire to deny your flesh and obey God’s will.”

    Implicit in this, of course, is the idea that heterosexual longings and desires are God’s perfect plan and homosexual longings are from the devil/sin nature/something else. It’s interesting that both pure straights and gays have very similar “temptations” when it comes to every thing else, but no straight guy is going to be “tempted” to do it with a guy.

    “Why are people so willing to celebrate self-identified gays and gay relationships but so dead against gays who decide to live a life of self-denial and pursuit of God?”

    Odd. You simultaneously insinuate that
    a. homosexuality is just a term that one identifies oneself as.
    b. a real innate quality that requires self-denial to not live out.

    I’m surprised that you’re surprised with people’s willingness to celebrate self-affirmation and finding human love, and unwillingness to celebrate self-denial and rejecting human in love in the hopes of finding it from some deity.

    “I respect everyone. Even those who choose to break-up for religious convictions. We should question our motives.”

    Would you respect a white man who, let’s say, divorced his black wife and left his three kids because he realized that God intended for the races to be separate? Should that break-up be celebrated? Should I question my own motives because I would found that rationale to be repulsive?

    It’s painfully evident that you don’t perceive this 22-year-old relationship to be a “real” or “authentic” relationship. You’re happy to “accept” this break-up because it wasn’t ever an approved relationship to begin with. You speak nonsense in the name of supposed tolerance.

  22. dan
    May 20, 2010

    This attitude is quite common and is often aimed at those who have left the church for any reason. It is also a very safe prayer — it will undoubtably come true. Life has its share of miseries, inside the church and out. As a gay man who spent 20 years in a pentecostal church, I understand from experience that many in my past are hoping and most likely praying that tragedy will come into my life, to turn me back to God as they know him.
    But tragedy is not a good reason to become involved in a church. If you believe the message, by all means explore it, but don’t let people frighten you into it or give you false hope. Life is partly about dealing with tragedy.

  23. Maurice Lacunza
    May 20, 2010

    I regret trashing all my books that taught me how NOT to be homosexual. It would be interesting to read the remarks of Rekers and others in view of so many anti-gay gay revelations.

    To JC: I recently joined a First United Methodist Church of which is considered a “reconciling” ministry. This body of believers voted in 2007 to be inclusive of all persons, including gays and lesbians. They are sometimes in the crosshairs of critics,(mostly critics from inside the Methodist heriarchy interestingly) but they are willing to take the stand they have taken. The point is that this mainstream congregation went in a direction that was in compliance with the overall Methodist mandate. (Even though there is a tiny doctrine in Methodism that could arguably be considered anti-gay.) Considering the conflicting doctrines, this church voted as a congregation and took the high road of inclusivity in the name of love and reconciliation. So, all of that to say that Kincaid is right, times are changing in the church.

  24. Jason D
    May 20, 2010

    “Ironically, the process Mr. Haley describes of initial freedom followed much later by emptiness and unhappiness”

    Dan, I have to say that never happened to me, I’ve been out of the closet 10 years this October.

    There certainly was the excitement, freedom, relief, confidence, euphoria, but there was never any emptiness and unhappiness — the emptiness and unhappiness was BEFORE Coming Out. The euphoria and excitement both slowly went away, as you would expect. Whenever I think about life before, and what it might be like if I had never come out — I definitely feel relief again.

    There was a moderately dark period, having mostly to do with unrealistic expectations of the gay community, the general lonliness that comes in the post-college years for many people and for people who are single (and don’t want to be). But like most people, I focused on doing what I wanted and making myself happy.

    People who knew before and have come back into my life remark how wonderful it is to see me finally be so happy and secure with myself.

  25. dan
    May 20, 2010

    Sorry Jason, I need to clarify. By ‘born again’ I was referring to those who had a euphoric religious experience(whether they are gay/straight), not those who have come out of the closet. My point is that the cycle Mr. Haley talks of could actually describe much of the conservative church world.

  26. Marlene
    May 21, 2010

    I’m betting that *because* the couple was together for *22 years*, they’ll be both ex-EX-gays real soon!

  27. Richard Rush
    May 21, 2010

    Heard from a couple this morning who have been praying for their daughter and her partner to come to Christ for 22 years. Both accepted Jesus, broke off their relationship and are pursuing a life in Christ. God is faithful and answers prayers. Be encouraged no matter your circumstances!

    If “God is faithful and answers prayers” why did it take 22 years for Him to finally answer? Does God take pleasure in having people plead, beg, and grovel for 22 years? Or was God busy with other tasks? Is God deaf? If I wasn’t an atheist already, this would be just one more story that would nudge me in that direction.

    And then we need to remember that there are only two possible outcomes for a relationship: The two people either stay together or split, and there is roughly a 50/50 chance for each outcome. Alan’s use of the relationship break-up as affirmation that “God is faithful and answers prayers” is profound idiocy.

  28. Timothy Kincaid
    May 21, 2010

    Richard,

    You just misunderstand. God answered their prayers all along, just not with the answer they wanted.

    Year one, God said “no”.
    Same with year two and year three.

    Years 4 through 18, God said “shut up and leave me alone”

    Year 19, 20, and 21 He said, “no no no no no no no no no no no!!”

    Year 22 He said, “Fine. If I divinely interfere and magically change their minds and make them want to leave their relationship, will you stop bugging me? Huh? Will that be enough?”

    Somehow I think that in a year real soon he’ll be answering their “now that they ain’t livin’ the homo lifestyle, make ‘em straight” prayers with, “what was I thinking? Nope, back they go”

  29. Richard Rush
    May 21, 2010

    Timothy said, “You just misunderstand. . .” Yeah, I get that a lot :)

    So, according to your analysis, God changed his mind in the 22nd year, which is understandable after all those years of nagging. But here’s the thing: I assume we can all agree that part of the nature of God is that He is perfect. However, if He changed his mind, then He is not perfect. And if He is not perfect, then He is not God. Or something like that.

  30. Timothy Kincaid
    May 21, 2010

    Richard,

    I just find it amusing that those who claim to believe in the doctrine of Free Will start praising Jesus when someone else does what they want them to do.

    They seem to believe that the same God that gives them free will then turns around and magically confounds the thinking and will of others. It is so extremely self-serving. They have created a deity that exists to do their bidding and to hocus-pocus the rest of the world.

    That isn’t Christianity, it’s voo-doo.

    While I remain a believer in God, I certainly can’t fault others for looking at this nonsense and foolishness and throwing the whole kit and caboodle out the window.

    (BTW… my earlier comment was intended to be irony)

  31. Emily K
    May 21, 2010

    Timothy, the Haitian Vodou religion is not “hocus-pocus.” Please refrain from stereotyping it as such.

  32. Timothy Kincaid
    May 21, 2010

    Emily,

    Please don’t speak disparagingly of hocus-pocus.

  33. Emily K
    May 21, 2010

    Timothy:

    per wikipedia:

    [the phrase's] most prevalent modern meaning is “contrived nonsense”, as in, “It was all a load of hocus pocus”.

    I don’t need to speak disparagingly of it. it already is.

  34. Timothy Kincaid
    May 21, 2010

    Comedy, Emily, comedy.

    It’s 5 pm on a Friday. Lighten up.

  35. Jarred
    May 22, 2010

    Timothy: I get the joke, and I appreciate it. I also understand your intended meaning when using words like “voo-doo” and “hocus pocus.” At the same time, as a witch and a magician who has friends and associates who honor the orishas and/or the loa, it’s not a usage I’m entirely comfortable with when I run across it.

  36. Steve
    May 22, 2010

    An understanding of science and some background in science tends to broaden one’s horizons and thoughts when it comes to understanding human sexuality.

    If there is one thing that can be said about Focus on the Family, it would be that the upper leadership falls into one very narrow category (for about 95% of the leadership): white, male, no scientific background other than the “soft sciences” such as psychology, a plethora of degrees in ministry, middle aged or older, and so forth. Just go to their website and look at the description of the current leadership if you don’t believe me. The female directors are really no different. “Doctor” James Dobson is not a real doctor–i.e.not a physician. The title “doctor” some infers that he is a scientific man who deserves special respect.
    We have a group of mainly white, middle aged men, who live in tidy upper middle class suburbs around Colorado Springs and its environs, who portray themselves as all knowing about the science of human sexuality. Their world view is one of homogenous white suburbs and urban sprawl and strip malls, where a good guy likes football, hunting, and driving a large SUV, and where this planet is ours for the taking. It is a given among these great all American guys that our culture is cleary the best as well as is Christianity. To think otherwise is un-American. To think otherwise is troubling. It is something you suppress—the idea that the white upper middle class suburb may not be the achievement goal of the rest of humanity.
    So….if you don’t have kids, aren’t straight, don’t enjoy the Bronco’s football games, and don’t enjoy cutting your lawn at your tract home with the obligate three car garage, you just aren’t an American and you probably aren’t a good Christian. So what if they never had any scientific training to broaden their perspectives on the vast diversity of life on this planet. So what if they have a warped and superficial knowledge of human biology.
    Take it from a guy who lives in close proximity to these so called modern prophets who are trying to push their view of a sanitized world on the rest of us.
    In summary, just think about this: Life on earth has been evolving for billions of years. The human species has been here for far less time. Is it realistic to expect that all evolution has now stopped just because we humans are so damn special that no further evolution is possible? Is it reasonable to conclude that some white guy in Colorado Springs with a flashy smile, a degree in divinity, a soccer mom wife, and a large SUV really knows what life is all about? Furthermore, in all his wisdom, is he the one to determine that God (whoever that is)made some kind of mistake by letting gay people live on this planet? Maybe I will ask him that the next time I see him in Home Depot buying Scotts Weed and Feed for his lawn.

  37. William
    May 22, 2010

    Steve,

    “Life on earth has been evolving for billions of years. The human species has been here for far less time.”

    That’s part of the problem. Most of the so-called pro-family crowd don’t believe that. They’re biblical fundamentalists who believe that the earth and all the species inhabiting it were created between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, the entire process taking just six days.

    They also believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch – including, presumably, the account of his own death and burial – at God’s dictation, although they feel free to decide for themselves which bits of the Mosaic Law apply today and which don’t, justifying their picking and choosing by a fraudulent distinction between “civil”, “ceremonial” and “moral” laws.

    Those really far out fundamentalists who still insist that the earth is the centre of the universe (see http://www.geocentricity.com/) are at least internally consistent within their own unscientific framework of thought.

    As some of them have put it, “Science cannot trump the word of God.”

  38. Steve
    May 22, 2010

    William,
    I think you described a very key part of the problem that these fundamentalists have—-that is a very narrow view of how this earth evolved. That narrow view is what leads them to hate gays as we don’t fit into the plan for procreation. Humans MUST reproduce and dominate this planet as the entire universe, earth, and everything on earth was made for our use and taking in their view of things. So what if the human species as we know it just showed up about 10,000 years ago despite the universe being billions of years old. It really is the height of self absorption and arrogance to assume that any human would know where we stand in the whole scheme of things let alone deciding if being gay or straight is right or wrong. What they really need to be focusing on is the unspoken truth—there are simply too many humans on this planet. No one is willing to face that reality.

  39. Western1
    May 25, 2010

    Steve,
    Your description of Christian leaders might have some truth to it but you grossly generalize. Most pastors, especially those of the caliber of Focus on the Family have traveled extensively, received doctorates in the study of the Bible, ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek, different world religions, family counseling, it goes on and on. They have visited impoverished countries, certainly to help start churches and feeding stations, but have seen the reality of poverty, none the less. They don’t live in this suburbian bubble as you seem to describe them.
    Many have learned different languages to help minister to communities, Spanish, Creole, Korean, etc. Most are faced with constant family discords and addictions from their congregation that they attend to and relationships they pour in to. Most help start ministries in their own cities that help immigrants read and safe places for their kids to study. I speak from experience. So some are white, have a nice lawn, and shop at Home Depot. So what?
    It’s easy to sip your Starbucks Coffee with your Che Guevarra shirt without a clue of the folks who suffer picking the beans and the totalitarian communist country started by the icon on your shirt, while you criticize the Godly men who improve your country.

  40. Jason D
    May 25, 2010

    Western1, READ HIS POST AGAIN.

    He wasn’t generalizing, he was specific to the Colorado Springs FotF crowd.

    Your comment is out of place as it addresses something his post does not say. You’re rushing to the defense of people Steve was clearly, eloquently NOT speaking about.

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