Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbySeptember 18th, 2010
From Peter at Right Wing Watch, who attended the Values Voters Summit yesterday in Washington, D.C.:
A Tea Party panel brought together three activists who told stories about their own transformations from being moms and conservatives who minded their own business to becoming activists. Activists Katie Abram and Billie Tucker said their Tea Party work was guided by God waking them up early in the morning with instructions, the same way, one said, God does with Glenn Beck. Tucker describes a disagreement among organizers of their local tea party group. When one argued against adding moral issues to the mission, Tucker responded, saying “God did not wake me up for four months at four in the morning to say, ‘Billie, we’ve got a tax issue.’ He woke me up because he said my country doesn’t love me like it used to love me.”
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Jason D
September 18th, 2010
“He woke me up because he said my country doesn’t love me like it used to love me.â€
And there we have it.
Upset for not being the darling, favorite, cherished, and powerful majority anymore.
Call the waaaambulance.
MJC
September 18th, 2010
The old joke is worth repeating:
“If yyou talk to God, it’s prayer. If God talks to you, it’s schizophrenia.”
By the way, MY God woke ME up for FIVE months and told me that the Tea Party is extremely dangerous.
pepa
September 18th, 2010
So Jim is continuing the generalize millions of people based on a panel of three count them THREE people.
Pathetic.
Nice try, but pathetic.
YOU are so naive Jim.
BlackDog
September 18th, 2010
I’m curious, Pepa, do you believe that it’s OK for people who are involved in politics not only to claim that they GET instructions from God each day, but to ACT on them?
What if that person is Muslim? What if that person is Pagan? What if…that person is of a sect of Christianity with which you disagree? That’s not so cool is it? That is why there is separation of church and state, Period.
Having been married to someone who routinely got instructions “from God” but who yet never in my presence acted on what Jesus says about how one SHOULD act…I’m skeptical immediately. If the religious nutcases either A) come to the fore or B) start acting on their religious impulses if they’re already in there…then there are going to be some attempts at some mightily wierd things. I’m talking about things that should not have a place in a 21st century secular society, things that would require a totalitarian dictatorship simply to enforce.
Consider Christine O’ Donnell’s anti-Masturbation crusade from the 1990’s, for example. Could anyone really enforce a law against that?
Give these wierdos some power and they might try and pass one, worse yet, they WILL try to enforce it.
pepa
September 18th, 2010
Its fine to believe whatever you want. In fact there are people that say that GOD mandates to treat gay people equally.
As far as getting instructions from god, not sure what they or even YOU mean. This line of questioning makes no sense even after you regurgitate the same stupidity from these people. Simply put, it is illogical for an invisible man to tell you what to do, and it is quite silly that YOU use it as basis for your comment. You are as a bad as these supposed tea party panelists who presented such nonsense.
That is one question I also pose to gay liberals: What if instead of Christian warriors we have Muslim jihadists who have slaughtered thousands of gay people around the world. Why do you pick and chose which religion to defend?
I basically do not care for religion, and I think people should be left alone about that. The gay left has failed to do simple logical reasoning to debunk the anti-gay arguments. The extreme right expect gay people to attack religion and divert the debate about that instead of the natural, unalienable rights of gay Americans. If YOU want to divert this issue about religion and play these cat and mouse games with religious extremists be my guest. Your not going to get anywhere. My quest is for liberty, including for gays and lesbians.
No, but what is sillier than that is that you actually take that nonsense seriously. If you have read my blog instead of making assumptions about my beliefs then you would know that I am against any law regulating any human behavior that does not intend on securing liberty, individual and property rights.
Actually YOU are doing more than that, you and Jim are actually giving this FRAUD (O’Donnell) a pedestal of attention.
Priya Lynn
September 18th, 2010
Pepa said “The gay left has failed to do simple logical reasoning to debunk the anti-gay arguments.”.
LOL, riiiiight. Fortunately we have right wingers like you and you’re going to make all the logical arguments the gay left “hasn’t”.
pepa
September 18th, 2010
And how many states did you stop gay marriage amendment bans… oh yeah NONE.
LOL.
tim
September 18th, 2010
I can completely sympathize with this comment. However – it means less when you only say it when it is said when someone is in power that you disagree with (i.e. Obama). The same problems existed under W. Bush and yet this individual took no notice and no action.
pepa
September 18th, 2010
ALSO add to the fact that LIBERALS failed to stop marriage amendments in LIBERAL STATES. (CA for instance)
Now that is something worth laughing about Priya. It is easy to blame “right wingers” (even though I am not) but YOU were at the controls. And simply put, YOU DID NOT DELIVER.
Ray
September 18th, 2010
Pepa, I’ve been a conservative my whole life and this BS you’re spewing about liberals is nonsense. Christ! You sound like somebody from FreeRepublic.com who gets the drizzly sh!ts over liberals. You say liberals “failed to stop marriage amendments”. HA. Loony! Explain that to the 20,000 Mormons who worked on the Prop 8 Campaign. There are **FORTY** states with those same restrictions and the so-called “small government conservatives”, AKA, the Republican Party, AKA, The Religious Right, AKA The Tea Party, is the **exact** originator of them.
Please. Stop speaking for conservative. You suck at it.
Tommy
September 18th, 2010
Oh pepa, your trolling is always funny.
And how many states did YOU (pepa) stop gay marriage bans? Oh, yeah none. I wouldn’t throw sticks from your glass house, LOL.
Which is, of course, a lie. Liberals stopped marriage amendments in Mass. at least twice.
No. The “right wingers” ran a campaign of demagoguery and lies in every case, which worked.
Please explain, in graphic detail and using specific examples, how Priya or anyone on the left was “at the controls” in California or any place else where there was a ballot measure passed? Go on, go on. Explain it to the group.
Richard Rush
September 18th, 2010
Pepa railing about the “gay left” and Liberals:
If, as you say, the so-called gay Left was responsible for all the state marriage referendums losses, why didn’t the gay Right step forward and shout “Here we come to save the day!” Who was stopping them? It’s really convenient for you to blame the people who were at least doing something, while leaving the one’s who did nothing completely blameless. It’s also convenient for you to ignore the magnitude of the battle we faced.
Ray
September 18th, 2010
Pepa, I guess you didn’t get the latest word from Fox News today wherein the State GOP of Montana was on the carpet trying to explain how their state platform contains a declaration to CRIMINALIZE homosexuality.
Ah,but those good conservatives in the Big Sky state had an explanation. They told Fox it wasn’t serious because the resolution had no legal teeth and was unenforceable.
Oh. Okay. Then no harm, no foul. Right?
Ahem. It’s been on their platform for TWELVE YEARS. And, oh by the way. Call you “conservative” pals in the Texas GOP and ask them about that little thingy their state platform has wherein the call for marriage between same sex people to be a FELONY OFFENSE.
Are your scary liberals writing this kind of thing into their political platforms?
Then STFU!!!
Ray
September 18th, 2010
RR sanely points out: “It’s really convenient for you to blame the people who were at least doing something, while leaving the one’s who did nothing completely blameless.
==================
Richard, it’s a glaring disconnect among “conservatives” these days that *actual* conservatives are calling “epistemic closure” (we’re trying to be kind to each other and not say “unhinged” or “loony”). The way it works is that these days, with all our conservative “elites” (remember people like Buckley, who **labored** intellectually) getting thrown under the bus by Sarah Palin, conservatives have decided that telling ONE side of the story – theirs – is like some sort of self-evident proof of their position. That’s what you just spotted Pepa doing, poor fool that he may be. William F. Buckley would get thrown under the bus these days as too “liberal”.
BlackDog
September 18th, 2010
“It’s fine to believe whatever you want. In fact there are people that say that GOD mandates to treat gay people equally.”
You know what I’ve noticed about those people, Pepa? Ain’t a single one of ’em that I’ve ever met that’s conservative.
“As far as getting instructions from god, not sure what they or even YOU mean. This line of questioning makes no sense even after you regurgitate the same stupidity from these people. Simply put, it is illogical for an invisible man to tell you what to do, and it is quite silly that YOU use it as basis for your comment. You are as a bad as these supposed tea party panelists who presented such nonsense.”
As for what I mean, simply put there are Christians, Dominionists and Pentecostals mostly, who believe that not only do THEY talk to God, but He talks back. Evidently, the tea party panelists mentioned in the article fall into this category.
As others have mentioned, just because you or I think they are silly does not mean that these people do not have power in various conservative organizations…in fact they seem to be taking over many conservative organizations. As an (apparently) non-religious conservative you are in the minority.
“That is one question I also pose to gay liberals: What if instead of Christian warriors we have Muslim jihadists who have slaughtered thousands of gay people around the world. Why do you pick and chose which religion to defend?”
Well, unless you go to Central Asia, Indonesia or the Middle East, chances are if you’re gay it’s a lot less likely that Muslims will be the ones who slaughter you. In the United States of America it is not the Muslims who are threatening to burn other people’s holy books or demonizing immigrants OR banning gay marriage in most states. In fact I doubt you could find any American Muslims in favor of these things…but they’re pretty much defining characteristics of conservative Christianity these days.
“I basically do not care for religion, and I think people should be left alone about that. The gay left has failed to do simple logical reasoning to debunk the anti-gay arguments. The extreme right expect gay people to attack religion and divert the debate about that instead of the natural, unalienable rights of gay Americans. If YOU want to divert this issue about religion and play these cat and mouse games with religious extremists be my guest. Your not going to get anywhere. My quest is for liberty, including for gays and lesbians.”
Well that makes you a minority among your kind of people, and if you can’t see that I might suggest an eye exam.
“No, but what is sillier than that is that you actually take that nonsense seriously. If you have read my blog instead of making assumptions about my beliefs then you would know that I am against any law regulating any human behavior that does not intend on securing liberty, individual and property rights.”
It’s like this, homey, if we don’t take it seriously and deal with this problem then we stand a good chance of getting blindsided by the crazies. This is exactly what’s going on with most moderate, sensible conservatives these days. I kid you not, a couple weeks ago I saw a blog post entitled “Mike Castle Does Not Lose Elections In Delaware.” Yes, I saw that. I can link you to the post if you want. He lost to someone who believes some pretty crazy things…and who just might try to make laws based on those beliefs.
“Actually YOU are doing more than that, you and Jim are actually giving this FRAUD (O’Donnell) a pedestal of attention.”
As I said before, there is a legitimate threat here. This “FRAUD” managed to defeat somebody who hadn’t lost an election since the ’60s and I’m not going to count on her losing in the general election even though that’s what the poll numbers are saying.
At the least, you are doing exactly what the republican leadership did when it created the tea bagger mess in the first place. You are assuming the inmates won’t take over the asylum. Well, they have and are continuing to do so.
Tommy
September 18th, 2010
You should go back and look at the “Ground Zero” Mosque posts. There were quite a few of us gay liberals defending Muslims, because most of us believe in TRUE freedom of religion. We do not pick and choose which religion to defend, we defend all comers when it is warranted, and repudiate all comers also when it is warranted.
BlackDog
September 18th, 2010
Honestly, it’s been my experience with most of the Religious Right type conservatives that I’ve known that yes, sure, they care about freedom and liberty.
Freedom for themselves, but not for those who are not like them. There’s something wrong with that.
I’m an Air Force veteran and the constitution I read and swore to defend says all men are created equal (obviously this is understood to include women also) not just Christians or Straight people or Whites.
For the record I’m a very Agnostic sort of Christian, I’m a straight white dude, and I’m socially liberal and economically conservative. I come from a small redneck town and I understand the mentality of the religious nuts, because I used to be surrounded by them and held at least some of their views.
I think we will be dealing with the most extreme of the extreme Christian Fundamentalist crazies before it’s all over.
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Why can’t people remember that?
David
September 18th, 2010
“He woke me up because he said my country doesn’t love me like it used to love me.â€
This is a very funny thing. Christ never said to expect the world, or any country, to love you if you truly follow Him.
John 17 “(14) I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. (15)My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. (16)They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. ”
For example, though there are many other verses that continue the theme.
Personally, as a Christian with decades of study behind me, and lifetime ahead, it seems, well, odd for God to say “your country doesn’t love you” as if that were something wrong.
Now tax issues, well, in the U.S., those are justice issues. Our tax system is grossly unjust, and it seems far more likely, to me, that God would say to someone in the middle of the night “There is terrible injustice in the U.S. – the tax system is broken”. It is worth noting that the prophets were sent when social and economic injustice were the way of life, and the prophets exhorted the people to return to God and return to justice, not create more injustice by giving more wealth to the rich.
oh well.
David
September 18th, 2010
Pepa, you lied when you wrote: “The gay left has failed to do simple logical reasoning to debunk the anti-gay arguments. ”
One of the largest GLBTQ organizations in the world, is the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, which for more than 30 years has been refuting anti-gay theology. There are thousands of GLBTQ Christians who have spent years publicly refuting anti-gay theology.
If you didn’t listen, or haven’t heard, it doesn’t mean it hasn’t been happening.
“Simply put, it is illogical for an invisible man to tell you what to do, and it is quite silly that YOU use it as basis for your comment. ”
This is dishonest. Christianity is not about an ‘invisible man’, it is about God, a being whose existence transcends within and beyond physicality. It is sad that you have to lie about what other people have experienced in order to make your point.
“My quest is for liberty, including for gays and lesbians.”
Given how dishonest your posts are, I doubt that. I think your quest is to create discord for your own amusement and self-aggrandizement.
pepa
September 18th, 2010
pepa
September 18th, 2010
Like I said, YOU were at the controls, YOU liberals controlled Equality CA, HRC, Get Equal… and so far what do you have to show for? NOTHING.
Oh please stop. You know damn well that the Liberals COULD and DID NOT STOP PROP 8 and QUESTION 1.
Stop trying to spin this. These two states alone are enough to tell us how liberalism is a hoax.
And what did you do about it? Support illegal immigrants instead.
Look no further than the fact that you liberals were against suing in federal court in the beginning and were even skeptical over the Olson/Boise (BI PARTISAN) lawsuit. But then after the victory you turn around and
claim as it your own.
Pathetic.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
AH, stop right there because YOUR FELLOW LIBERALS BELIEVE THAT RELIGION SHOULD BE SEPARATED from politics. So in the spirit of this debate I reject your comment.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
This is something YOU need to ask YOUR LIBERAL FRIENDS WHO VOTED FOR PROP 8.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
So you are defending Islamists who execute gays.
I never believed that gay libs will go that far, but now I know its true.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
OH MY GOD. This has to be the most STUPIDEST COMMENT EVER MADE IN THE HISTORY OF THE INTERNET.
I was going to comment on your entire comment but that one quote really just blew my mind. Are you that stupid? Are you that brainless? Are you that naive?
Do you actually believe that Islamists and Muslims are FOR gay marriage?
The more YOU libs comment the bigger the hole you libs dig for yourselves WOW.
justsearching
September 19th, 2010
“So you are defending Islamists who execute gays.
I never believed that gay libs will go that far, but now I know its true.”
This is absurd. I can say I believe in true freedom of religion while saying that I don’t believe anyone (“Islamist” or otherwise) has the freedom to execute gays.
Lucrece
September 19th, 2010
Wow ya’ll are seriously feeding– more like setting up a feast– the troll.
Drop it and he’ll go away.
justsearching
September 19th, 2010
I might also point out that by calling his opponents brainless, stupid, and naive pepa is clearly violating the Comments Policy.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
@ Ray
No but their leaders are saying that banning gay marriage is okay.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
I can say that is true ABSURDITY. Because Islamists believe in executing gay people. You cannot have it both ways. HYPOCRITE.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
BTB no longer cares about gays.
BlackDog
September 19th, 2010
“OH MY GOD. This has to be the most STUPIDEST COMMENT EVER MADE IN THE HISTORY OF THE INTERNET.
I was going to comment on your entire comment but that one quote really just blew my mind. Are you that stupid? Are you that brainless? Are you that naive?
Do you actually believe that Islamists and Muslims are FOR gay marriage?
The more YOU libs comment the bigger the hole you libs dig for yourselves WOW.”
Oh my GOD. I am awed by your use of italics and cowed by your screaming and use of “lib” as an epithet. If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge to sell you…oh wait…for you that might be a valid offer of housing.
No, I know that Muslims are just as wide of a spectrum of belief politically or socially as anyone else and I know quite a few of them. Can’t say as any of the ones I know even have much of an opinion about all the “conservative” hot button social issues. Some that I know believe homosexuality is wrong, but you KNOW WHAT? They don’t believe they have a right to go around telling other people how to live.
A great many Christians on the other hand, do exactly that. If you are a non-religious person who believes in liberty for all WHY are you equivocating and obfuscating in support of those who would take away the liberty of others?
You, sir, are an apologist FOR the Dominionists, and I don’t believe for a second that you’re being straight with anybody here about your beliefs. What are you even getting out of this? Really??? I have no intention of continuing this argument. I am not going to feed the troll, most of all I’m not gonna waste my time. So why don’t you crawl back to whatever bridge you live under?
I’ve got better things to do than argue with you, like organize my sock drawer.
Emily K
September 19th, 2010
guys, if you search for pepa’s comments, you’ll see it’s all a desperate attempt to get people to read his blog. just IGNORE him. Honestly. His stupidity speaks for itself. We all know he’s wrong. Just ignore him, and do not click over to his blog. That’s what he wants you to do, to get more eyeballs on his pathetic blog.
He’s like an incarnation of NG, attacking every single gay organization that doesn’t believe exactly as he does. (which ends up being all of them).
It’s all a childish bid for attention.
BlackDog
September 19th, 2010
You know, more to the point, since the discussion in question is about something relating to the political situation in the United States of America, not say, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia…I have to ask;
Has anyone ever seen a Muslim IN the USA act in the same way towards gay people that Conservatives…who are yes, mostly Christians…do?
I haven’t.
Therefore, logic dictates that any discussion of “Islamists” would be seriously off topic, wouldn’t it?
Jason D
September 19th, 2010
Blackdog, well “islamists” aren’t the same as muslims anymore than Christianists are the same as Christians.
The “ist” is basically shorthand for extremist fundamentalist.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
Oh what a bunch of BULL.
You obviously don’t know your Muslim friends really well.
BTW, I just figured you libs out. You are VERY dismissive about the RAMPANT homophobia in Islam by making up excuses for them, at least there are respectable gay liberals who see right through them, but then some wacko in Montana says something asinine and you all pounce an entire movement while PROTECTING Muslims who EXECUTE gay people.
Another thing, I am curious to know since you have Muslim friends that “believe homosexuality is wrong” did you rightly call them bigots and haters as you typically do? Or do you reserve that for a specific kind of people?
More evidence suggesting this site or blog is no longer about attacking people who are horrible towards gay people or violating our rights but to pursue a liberal ideology in spite of the mission this site which supposedly declares ideology unnecessary:
Can you smell hypocrisy?
pepa
September 19th, 2010
LOL Then she also says:
You mean like how you disagree with me then attack me by calling me stupid.
Right…
Rethink that comment again.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
What a moronic statement. Now you want to shy away from this conversation, back tracking and just being a slippery eel.
You obviously do not know much about the Muslim faith. There is no difference between american muslims vs muslims in Europe, Asia, Africa or in the middle east. They all pray in the same direction to Mecca, they all read the same book, and pretty much have consistent beliefs. There are few who would profess a liberal view on Islam but again, they are a few.
To answer your question directly lets not look further than this comment section alone specifically YOUR VERY OWN COMMENT:
Which then begs the question: why even ask such a silly question when you know the answer yourself.
BOTH Christianity and Islam despises homosexuality, period. The difference being that the majority of Muslims still live in the dark ages and take it to the extreme in executing gay people.
BTW,
Please show me where exactly I voiced such support.
Jim Burroway
September 19th, 2010
If the 38 messages left on this thread before this one, 16 were left by pepa. That’s usually one good indication that someone is more interested in killing a conversation by making it about himself than engaging in a conversation with a respectful give-and-take. Most of pepa’s comments consist of name-calling and unsubstantiated assertions. This is obvvious trolling behavior:
“someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.”
pepa’s comments will be moderated. They will be published when they are on-topic and civil in tone.
Priya Lynn
September 19th, 2010
Pepa said “And how many states did you stop gay marriage amendment bans… oh yeah NONE. LOL.”.
And how many states did you stop gay marriage amendment bans in…oh yes, NONE, LOL.”.
Pepa said “Now that is something worth laughing about Priya. It is easy to blame “right wingers†(even though I am not) but YOU were at the controls. And simply put, YOU DID NOT DELIVER.”.
I’m Canadian, I never had any access to the controls – you are ignorant. No one was holding a gun to your head preventing you from taking the controls. No one was preventing you from “doing simple logical reasoning to debunk the anti-gay arguments.†and you did not, simply put YOU DID NOT DELIVER. Not only did you not deliver, you did NOTHING WHATSOEVER to stop the conservative attacks on gays.
Pepa said “These two states alone are enough to tell us how liberalism is a hoax.”.
LOL, yes, right, liberalism is a hoax because it didn’t prevent the anti-gay marriage ammendments in those two states, but somehow conservatism that proposed, advanced and passed those anti-gay marriage amendments is our buddy – you’re messed up.
Pepa said “This is something YOU need to ask YOUR LIBERAL FRIENDS WHO VOTED FOR PROP 8.”.
LOL, riiight, we need to condemn liberals for the handful of them who voted for prop 8, but we should praise conservatives the vast majority of which voted for prop 8 – you’re messed up.
Pepa said “So you are defending Islamists who execute gays.”.
So now you’re defending conservatives who execute gays.
Pepa said “You are VERY dismissive about the RAMPANT homophobia in Islam by making up excuses for them, at least there are respectable gay liberals who see right through them, but then some wacko in Montana says something asinine and you all pounce an entire movement while PROTECTING Muslims who EXECUTE gay people.”.
Your lies are boring. No one is dismissing homophobia in Islam, we are just acknowledging that there are some Islamics who aren’t homophobic. And if doing so equates to protecting Muslims who execute gay people, then you PROTECT Conservatives who EXECUTE gay people.
Pepa said “You mean like how you disagree with me then attack me by calling me stupid.”.
The difference between Emily and you is that she calls you stupid based on the idiotic arguments, lies, and strawmen you post. You call liberals stupid for allegedly not “doing simple logical reasoning to debunk the anti-gay arguments.†and yet somehow you post rant after spittle-flecked rant and we’ve yet to hear any of these elusive “simple logical arguments to debunk anti-gay reasoning” that you keep insisting you know. You’re pathetic, no gay liberal is preventing you from making those arguments, no gay liberal is preventing you from overturning anti-gay marriage amemndments, no gay liberal has prevented you from implementing equal marriage but you HAVE FAILED TO DO SO because you have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to offer the cause, you are totally devoid of any usefullness WHATSOEVER, you’ve got nothing but idiotic attacks on the gay liberals who are carrying the ENTIRE load for slackers like you
Priya Lynn
September 19th, 2010
Pepa said “You obviously do not know much about the Muslim faith. There is no difference between american muslims vs muslims in Europe, Asia, Africa or in the middle east. They all pray in the same direction to Mecca, they all read the same book, and pretty much have consistent beliefs.”
That’s specious reasoning, and no more accurate than if I were to say “There is no difference between Pepa and Muslims who want to execute gay people. They both eat food, sleep in a bed, read books and seek occaisonal entertainment. American muslims aren’t fanatics like the Muslims in control of the Iranian government, American muslims are much more moderate than Muslims from Asia or Africa. You quite simply are willfully ignorant about American Muslims.
Pepa said “BOTH Christianity and Islam despises homosexuality, period. The difference being that the majority of Muslims still live in the dark ages and take it to the extreme in executing gay people.”.
False. A few muslim leaders have ordered the execution of gays but the vast, vast majority of Muslims have never executed gays and there is no evidence that they support doing so.
BlackDog
September 19th, 2010
“BOTH Christianity and Islam despises homosexuality, period. The difference being that the majority of Muslims still live in the dark ages and take it to the extreme in executing gay people.”
I not only know quite a bit about Islam, but I also know actual Muslim people, none of whom are these extremists you keep going on and on about. My neighbor is from Saudi Arabia, for example. I have seen far more knuckle-dragging homophobic and racist slurs and far more abuse of gay people that I personally know by Christians then by Muslims. Your assertions…and that really is all they are…run counter to the reality most gay people that I know (Including my own mother) experience on a day-to-day basis. We are, again, not talking about Pakistan or Saudi Arabia here, we are discussing the situation in America. I have yet to see, or even hear of, any particularly bad behavior towards gay people by Muslims in the USA. In fact, it is my understanding that in the one place where there are lots of Christians and lots of Muslims…sub-saharan Africa…the Christians seem to do the majority of the persecuting of gay people. See for example all the posts here about Uganda.
“Please show me where exactly I voiced such support.”
When a supposedly non-religious person is voicing extreme hatred against the same groups that the Dominionists are having a hate-fest for currently, Liberals and Muslims. I tend to get suspicious. When that person is also blatantly ignoring the FACT that the majority of the persecution of gay people IN THIS COUNTRY is from Christians in favor of going after the Muslims who are NOT engaging in any such efforts of organized persecution at the moment, I get even more suspicious.
When that person outright denies that there are extreme religious nuts posing a danger to EVERYONE’S freedom active in the Tea Bagger movement, then I start to assume that since this is an observable fact, the person making these statements is either a fool or a liar.
You may not BE a religious nut, but you’re certainly covering for them.
John
September 19th, 2010
BlackDog: I’m socially liberal and economically conservative
I can relate, though I’m probably more towards the center than outright “liberal” on social issues. Of course this does depend upon the issue and who gets to render judgment on my view. :)
I was hoping we’d havve many of these issues put to rest by the time I hit midlife, but alas…
Tommy
September 19th, 2010
It feels good to flex my rhetorical muscles…
You are lying. In that clip Obama states he is against banning gay marriage. It is right there in it.
There is a difference between “beliefs” and “actions.” That is one of the main principals of religious freedom. If you do not understand that difference you do not understand religious freedom.
Oh boy… here we go…
Are you seriously going to claim that someone does not know his own friends well? Seriously?
And what, exactly, excuses would those be? Please use specific examples from this comment thread backing this statement up. Make sure said “excuses” are about the entirety of Islam and not relating to specific people or groups that are Islamic.
PLEASE, give a single example of gay people “protecting Muslims who execute gay people.” PLEASE give that to us.
You mean like how you disagree with people and then attack them by saying “most stupidist?”
No, that’s what you want to do.
Really? REALLY? You really wish to make this claim? Let’s see you back it up…
My, how many glittering generalities can you stick together in one sentence? To use a similar comparison, you’ve officially managed to prove there is no difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. After all they all pray to the same trinity, read the same book and pretty much have consistent beliefs.
Tommy
September 19th, 2010
Sorry Jim, I didn’t see your comment until after I posted mine.
pepa
September 19th, 2010
Sorry Tommy,
But Jim does not want me to answer your questions (which are reasonable ones)
because apparently it is a violation to answer them as it is considered “trolling.”
Go figure.
Jim Burroway
September 19th, 2010
No pepa, As appears to be your consistent tactic, that is not trolling. Attempting to dominate the conversation with bomb-throwing rhetoric that is disrespectful to those you are answering is. You are free to answer Tommy respectfully. But the incivility of your tone must change, otherwise they will not pass moderation.
Maurice Lacunza
September 19th, 2010
If the Tea Party was worried about God wanting his people to love him again, wouldn’t the social gospel require an outreach to the streets? The government is not the place to legislate “love”. The Christians forget that they owe their freedom to the SEPARATION of church and STATE.
Maurice Lacunza
September 19th, 2010
To Pepe: A house divided will not stand. There is never complete agreement in any group, so you and the others who would argue back are acting like 10th graders.
As my grandma would say, shape up and behave.
John
September 19th, 2010
The Tea Party says they aren’t concerned with social issues. Christine O’Donnell, among others, is very much about social issues. Don’t be fooled.
BlackDog
September 20th, 2010
I think it’s funny that Christine O’ Donnell ran that anti-Masturbation campaign in the 90’s but she lives with her boyfriend (This from the same blogger who said Mike Castle doesn’t lose elections, btw) and the ALSO claimed to have once practiced witchcraft.
Not exactly the ideal “social issues” cantidate but I hear from a guy I know down south that the local tea baggers love her.
Emily K
September 20th, 2010
a friend of mine has the feeling she’s a fraud, just riding the anti-gay anti-sex bandwagon for the publicity and the career (and money).
Check her wiki page, she has a history of coming through on things – like tuition and mortgage payments.
She appeared on “Politically Incorrect” more than 20 times playing up that stance, and now she’s modeled herself after Palin (look at her hair and outfits).
I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case.
BlackDog
September 20th, 2010
I’ve heard she’s a professional cantidate, and basically lives off of campaign contributions and whatnot. The one Delaware-native blogger said she’s accused Castle campaign staffers of hiding in the bushes in front of her house…but there ARE no bushes in front of her house.
Where DO the tea baggers keep finding all these crazy cantidates?
Timothy Kincaid
September 20th, 2010
Blackdog
I have. More than a few. And it tears them up that their fellow conservatives don’t live up to their own calling.
These are the folk who believe that small government also means not dictating whom you can marry. They believe that “love your neighbor” doesn’t come with an asterisk.
Sadly, they are the ones that the true-blue-holier-than-thou-knee-jerk conservatives call “squishes” and RINOs and are under constant attack from the purity crowd.
And for a few decades it has been the “true blue conservatives” who have been most visible and most vocal. But that doesn’t mean that the heart and soul of everyday conservatives have been entirely poisoned by hate and bigotry.
Honestly, decent folk make up the bulk of Christians and probably the majority of self-described “conservatives.” There really are very few die-hard “values voters” out there.
We just haven’t done a very good job and explaining exactly what we want. Much of the divide between conservatives and the gay community is the result of mistrust and miscommunication.
Virtually every single one of our self-appointed leaders are from the more liberal end of our community and unfortunately don’t speak “conservative.” So they have historically packaged our quests in language that appeals to liberals but not so much to conservatives. (I’ve cringed when someone in a lobby group started in trying to convince a Republican to support on of our bills and I heard them say things that were almost certain to drive his vote the other way.)
I think (and hope) that this is changing; I’ve seen some positive steps in the way we tell our stories. And I’ve seen reaction to those stories from within the conservative community.
I really do believe that for a majority of so-called conservatives, what we really need to do is tap into the fact that they already agree with “how dare big government tell me who I can marry” and “everybody gets an equal shot and no one gets special rights” and once they come to see our quest for equality in those terms, they will see – as Ted Olson said – that equality issues do “promote the values conservatives prize.”
We’ll never win over those who start from “God told me what you should do”. But I think we can win the rest.
Jim Burroway
September 20th, 2010
To back up what Timothy said, I think the most prominent conservative who understand what conservatism means with regard to marriage equality is none other than Ted Olson, the Bush/Cheney lawyer who so skillfully sued the state of California over Prop 8 and won.
Another one I can think of off the top of my head is David Brooks, going all the way back to 2003.
TJMcFisty
September 20th, 2010
“Upset for not being the darling, favorite, cherished, and powerful majority anymore.
Call the waaaambulance.”
AKA, Adult Onset Cryabetes or Hypocryacemia.
I honestly cannot believe that in this day and age, we’re seriously listening to people who are called to action on federal issues, in the morning nonetheless, by God. It’s one thing to have “Your Personal Relationship” with the Creator(s, etc), but this really is going too far.
Can’t the country collectively furrow our brow at these people and be dismissive again?
BlackDog
September 20th, 2010
Jim & Tim
The sort of conservatives of whom you speak…all too rare (or maybe just invisible these days?) and I think most of the ones like that (that I know at least) are voting for democrats these days anyway. Most of the ones I know like that aren’t especially religious and nearly everybody in my life that’s an old school conservative is related to me. Whatever else they’re about, the tea party crowd and the values voters don’t seem all that interested in ‘conserving’ anything.
Like I said, I used to be a conservative, but this upwelling of political and religious fanaticism we’ve seen in the last couple years…that worries me. You can’t reason with the people under its influence most of the time. I remember seeing recently on another blog something to the effect of “we live in a post-fact society.”
It’s gotten to the point where people can just make stuff up and it’s accepted. There are times when decisions have to be made based on cold hard facts.
I read quite a bit about Ted Olson, gotta say I have tremendous respect for that guy. I think it’s funny that since the prop 8 loss the Republicans are mostly giving up on the “gay issue.”
It’d be good if people would take their cues from him instead of the far right though.
Ben in Oakland
September 20th, 2010
“It’d be good if people would take their cues from him instead of the far right though.”
That would require leadership and intelligence, which seems to be further and further in short supply in this country.
I can think of a certain president who seems to take a few of his positions from the right.
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