My Very Favorite Gagnonism

Timothy Kincaid

August 10th, 2008

In Robert Gagnon’s latest condemnation of me, Box Turtle Bulletin, and all the “homosexualists” that comment here, he selects a passage from the book of Matthew to illustrate why “the ‘historical Jesus’ would have opposed homosexual practice”.

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

You may have heard of Matthew 7:1-6. You may even have thought it was about acceptance and tolerance and withholding judgment of others. Well not according to Gagnon:

Jesus’ saying about not giving what is “holy” to the “dogs” (Matt 7:6), an apparent allusion to Deuteronomic law (Deut 23:17-18) and texts in 1-2 Kings that indict the qedeshim, self-designated “holy ones” identified as “dogs” for their attempt to erase their masculinity by serving as the passive-receptive partners in man-male intercourse.

I kid you not! Robert Gagnon believes the text on not judging is really a condemnation of bottom boys.

But I guess the good news is that Jesus loves tops.

See also:
Gagnon Rants On And On
My Very Favorite Gagnonism
Robert Gagnon and the Grand Box Turtle Whirl of Immorality
Gagnon Revisited
Clarifying Robert Gagnon’s Tortured Logic
Gagnon Employs Tortured Logic
Robert Gagnon’s Unorthodox Approach to Doctrine

Emily K

August 10th, 2008

This whole thing reads like bad comedy and worse theology.

Stefano A

August 10th, 2008

As a Sinn Fein member of the Northern Ireland Assembly has suggested about Iris Robinson, and County Assessor Leonard Sullivan said about Oklahoma Commissioner Brent Rinehart . . .

“Iris seems to be constantly obsessed with the gay and lesbian community.”

“I think she should seek a quiet moment to sit down and talk to somebody herself.

“She seems to be displaying all the characteristics of someone under severe pressure and she should take herself away and sort out her life.”

….

“I’ve really encouraged him on more than one occasion to get professional help. . . .”

Narc

August 10th, 2008

… erase their masculinity by serving as the passive-receptive partners in man-male intercourse.

And there we have it. I’ve long thought that the objection to gays is really an objection to what they see as a rejection of masculinity. Gay sex makes a man feminine, and that’s bad. It also goes a long way to explaining why these sorts of people fixate on gay men and largely ignore lesbians.

Emily K

August 10th, 2008

Narc, they fixate on gay men and not lesbians because that’s who they find threatening. Lesbians are not threatening because 1) we are “only” women 2) when two hot girls have sex it gets them off 3) two women who are attracted to each other has no bearing on the fact that any particular homophobe might secretly have even the slightest attraction to other men.

Men are obsessed with gay men, but more importantly, they are obsessed with the “bottoms.” Being “passive” makes one womanly. Women = less then men, so man::womanly = man::defective

Honestly, scratch an anti-gay, and you’ll get an anti-feminist.

neil h

August 11th, 2008

What about all of the straight people (or should that be ‘heterosexualists’?) who read, enjoy and comment on BTB?

John

August 11th, 2008

Interesting argument by Gagnon. Certainly there are numerous examples of uses by NT authors of the Septuagint in their writings. It appears to have been referenced by them, not without changes in some cases of course, far more than the Masoretic Text in composing the NT. Yet there is also their use of the Samaritan Text and others nobody has been able to identify. I must say though that I find his line of argumentation to be amusing since many Protestants I know of balk when Catholics refer to possible allusions from the LXX that come from books the Reformation rejected. In discussions of the Biblical Canon it seems, suddenly these allusions become unimportant. Yet somehow we are supposed to draw upon them in making a case about sexuality. Curious that.

John

August 11th, 2008

Oops! Sorry, I garbled that a bit. My point was that I find it ironic that Gagnon would rely so heavily upon highly speculative “allusions” in Matthew 7:6 to Deuteronomy concerning sexuality, when his co-religionists balk at this line of reasoning when it comes to Biblical Canon. As far as his claim that the Roman Centurion was a Jewish official and the servant was his son, his is a distinctly minority opinion – regardless of whether one sees a homosexual relationship between the Centurion and servant, or not.

Garrett O'Neal

August 11th, 2008

Narc & Emily K,

I’ve always had the question, why? Why are the anti-gays arguing homosexuality to the death? I know now. It makes so much sense. I laughed in disgust when I thought about where the Ex- and Anti-Gays’ comments/arguments are rooted…their view of “passive/receptive” men. How sad! It’s as if they are using the Bible to justify an obsession of their masculinity.

Ben in Oakland

August 11th, 2008

I’m glad he thinks of my butt as ‘pearls’– though pearls of great price might be stretching it a bit.

Oh, i’m confused. I thought he was totally aginst it. i’ll have to ask my fiance (one week from today!!! yay!!!)

Pete

August 11th, 2008

The word “homosexual” already has enough syllables. Why did this guy have to add another one? Also, it should be noted that his obsession with the gay issue makes me wonder if he is even a “heterosexualist”.

SharonB

August 11th, 2008

This (chauvinism) also explains why the ADF has such a jihad against the transgendered. …And then typically spend so little time on the FtM’s.

homer

August 11th, 2008

I don’t a single straight man who obsesses obsessively about gay sex. All of my straight male friends are mildly curious about the mechanics, but could care less about whether guys are actually doing it.

Jake

August 11th, 2008

So it’s okay to top?

Lynn David

August 11th, 2008

Self-described holy ones? I thought qedeshim did mean holy ones in the languages of the Hebrews/Canaanites, in whose temples they were housed (and not sodomite as translated in 1Kings by the KJV and others). Just as the town of Kadesh (Qedesh) meant holy place. It sounds as if Gagnon doesn’t even care to give the Hebrew or Canaanite languages their proper due.

Uh…. Ben in Oakland, the [sacred] pearls would be another man’s semen… the butt in question would be that of a dog/swine. I remember getting this attitude from Gagnon when I read his work sometime back. Anyone who thinks… or desires to think that way has some serious problems/issues/whatever….

And Jake, in the old days of the Biblical lands it was OK to top, though not based upon the Hebrew’s Levitical laws, there both are condemned. And in much of Middle Eastern cultures tops are not considered to be homosexual (which is much as it was with the generally bottom qedeshim in the Canaanite temples). In the bronze age topping was something you did to a defeated foe on the battlefield, if he plead for his life. I guess if the top had a god orgasm, the defeated foe (bottom) could get himself away from the topper (or cut his head off with a discarded sword). Oh well….

Lynn David

August 12th, 2008

YIKES! That was supposed to be “good orgasm,” not “god orgasm.” Sorry. I can’t imagine what that would be…. no, really I can’t, I’m an atheist.

Ben in Oakland

August 12th, 2008

Lynn David– sounds like some sort of freudian slip to ME!!!

I’ve just informed my husband that Gagnon’s ignorance knows no bounds, and than in fact my pearls are just melons. He said “Typical for those fundamentalists. They can’t get ANYTHING um, aahhh, straight. But at least you’re not a dog or a swine, except when it comes to hte kitchen floor.”

aahh, the gay marriage agenda. Infecting even something as normal and natural as housework.

When will we be free?

Richard Rush

August 12th, 2008

Another reason that lesbians may be largely ignored by the anti-gay crowd is that a substantial percentage of straight men are actually titillated by the thought of lesbian action. Lesbian sex scenes are common in straight porn.

revtj

August 13th, 2008

Presbyterian homophobia is so complex. It’s more than the usual, “God told me to hate you,” but adds an unchangeable veneer of, “it was pre-ordained that I hate you before time began,” thus judging gays becomes a fulfillment and not a departure from Jesus’ teaching. It is no wonder the denomination has argued this issue for nearly 30 years and made virtually no progress at all. It is comforting to know that well over 50% of the layfolks are sick of the issue, would happily welcome gay people to their congregations, and see their leadership as being strangely obsessed with this issue. Is there something in our reptile brain that makes us want to use the bottom and then blame him? I think so.

revtj

August 13th, 2008

PS : My reading of the gospels indicates Jesus was a true submissive. But calling him a “power bottom” is probably a little anachronistic.

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