Box Turtle Bulletin

Box Turtle BulletinNews, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric
“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
This article can be found at:
Latest Posts

Andrew Wommack and His Ministries Want To Kill You

Jim Burroway

February 3rd, 2010

Andrew Wommack

Andrew Wommack

Andrew Wommack is an American Evangelical Pastor who has a very large presence in Uganda, where that nation’s Parliament is considering the Anti-Homosexuality Bill which  would provide for the death sentence for HIV-positive LGBT people, and life imprisonment for the rest. That bill would also penalize friends, family members, and co-workers who don’t report LGBT people to police within twenty-four hours with up to three years’ imprisonment, and would criminalize anyone “aiding and abetting” homosexuality — health care professionals fear that this would include them if they provide health care and counseling to LGBT people — with seven years’ imprisonment.

So where does Andrew Wommack stand on the bill, and would he speak out against it? We decided to ask. We sent an email to an address provided on Wommack’s contact page on Monday. We outlined just a few of the provisions of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, along with a link to the full text of the bill. We also mentioned Saddleback Pastor Rick Warren’s December statement against the bill, in which he called it “unjust, extreme and un-Christian toward homosexuals.” We reminded Rev. Wommack that he maintains a prominent office at 39 Cham Towers on Kampala Road, and his television program is broadcast daily every morning at 8:30 am and again at 8:30 pm on Kampala-based Lighthouse TV.

Andrew Wommack Ministries in Kampala

Andrew Wommack Ministries in Kampala

Given his prominent position in Uganda and the severity of the bill, we implored him to raise his voice as a voice of reason against this bill. We didn’t hear back from him directly. Instead, our email was passed on to Lealand Shores III, who is the Director of Andrew Wommack Ministries of Uganda. He responded by email this morning:

Dear Mr. Burroway

Thank you for your email.

As the Director of Andrew Wommack Ministries of Uganda I have been living in Uganda for 5 years now, I am married to a Ugandan and I have been embraced and loved by the people.  Our ministry serves this country sharing and teaching the “Unconditional Love and Grace of God” and one thing I have learned, as a foreigner here, is that the Ugandans are passionate about their families and their love for God.  It does not matter the denomination.

In reading through your email I have decided to respond because I believe that you must not be aware that there was a response to Mr. Warrens’ letter from Uganda.  For your convenience and review I am including the response from the Uganda National Task Force Against Homosexuality.  I believe this correspondence reveals the truth of the proposed Bill that is currently being presented.

Personally, I support this Bill, its’ premise and the proposed changes that are being made in Uganda.  While I can not speak for Andrew I believe that if you have watched his programming on Christian Philosophy 1 and 2 you would find his response in those programs.

Andrew Wommack Ministries in Kampala

"Teaching God's unconditional love and grace": Andrew Wommack Ministries in Kampala

If you will read CAREFULLY you will see that this bill is aimed the ACTIONS of people that are endangering the lives of innocent people.  This bill proposes accountability for actions that cause harm, especially to children and minors, and the spread of HIV/AIDS. In addition, I believe it is clear that the main aim of this bill is to protect children and minors (with an emphasis on males) that have no protection against sexual crimes under the current laws.  Further, it is aimed at upholding the moral and ethical fiber of family-rights in THIS country.  Finally, this Bill is dealing with the issues that are related to a Third-World Community. These issues are so very different from the Globalized mold Western activists and the press are trying to suggest that Uganda squeeze into.

Jim, the bottom-line is that the social-dichotomy here will always be intolerant, not hate as you have suggested, to homosexuality because of the strong social and family dynamics that dominate and drive the cultural existence here.  Therefore, the Bill is not aimed directly at the equality and family dynamics of the homosexual agenda which is the foundation of the gay-rights agenda in the Western communities.  The issues here are based from a traditional perspective which Western cultures find hard to wrap their minds around.

For example: Sodomy is promoted by traditional healers, witchdoctors, as a way of curing AIDS.  Homosexuality is used as a recruiting tool to lure young boys into receiving financial gain.  Homosexuality is used as a manipulation to keep young boys and girls as slave labor, they don’t leave or tell for fear of being shunned by the community.  Homosexuality is used in traditional rituals and in some cases ends in sacrificial offering of the victim. While in other places homosexuality is promoted as a lifestyle choice, here it is used as a way to manipulate and control others for personal gratification.  And the targets are the youth in this country.

If you will note who makes up this task force you will see that it is not a single group of anti-gay vigilante’s but a coming together of those cross-cultural sectors that are the moral foundation of this country.  As far as I know I am not aware of an American anti-gay sector within this group.

LeLand Shores III

Leland Shores III

Finally, let me say that in this instance I am so proud of this nation for standing up for something they believe in regardless of the threats that have come from around the World and especially from the USA who has threatened to pull funding if this bill is passed.

In closing please know that my purpose for responding to you is not to create discord but to present you with the response to Mr. Warrens’ letter which I must say sheds quite a bit of light on the subject.  It may or may not change your view, however, I would hope that as someone that is fighting for human rights you will see that this Bill is really not about impeding on someones human rights but ensuring the protection of their human rights in accordance with needs of this country.

May the Lord Bless you,
Pastor Leand Shores, III
Director – Andrew Wommack Ministries of Uganda

[All emphases in the original]

Contrary to Shores belief, we are well aware of the provisions of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, as we have posted the entire text of the bill online for the world to see. We have also seen the the many responses from Martin Ssempa to Rick Warren’s opposition of the bill. Ssempa heads the task force that Shores finds so authoritative. Shores believes that I must not have read the Anti-Homosexuality Bill that I posted online — and it should be obvious by now that I have — but his statement makes clear that either he hasn’t read the bill despite my providing a link to it, or he is willing to go along with the distortions that Ssempa and others are putting out about the bill.

Either way, this statement has Andrew Wommack and his ministry on record as being proud to stand behind this draconian bill and all of its provisions, which include:

  • Expanding the definitions for homosexual acts, making conviction easier. Current law requires evidence of penetration. The new law would expand the definition of homosexual activity to”touch(ing) another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.” Touching itself is defined as “touching—(a) with any part of the body; (b) with anything else; (c) through anything; and in particular includes touching amounting to penetration of any sexual organ. anus or mouth.”
  • Affirming Uganda’s lifetime imprisonment for those convicted of homosexuality.
  • Defining a new crime of “aggravated homosexuality” for those who engage in sex with someone under the age of 18, who are HIV-positive, who is a “repeat offender” (so broadly defined as to include anyone who has had a relationship with more than one person, or who had sex with the same person more than once), or who had sex with a disabled person (consensual or not). The penalty for “aggravated homosexuality” is death by hanging.
  • Requiring anyone arrested on suspicion of homosexuality to undergo HIV testing to determine the individual’s qualification for prosecution of “aggravated homosexuality.”
  • Criminalizing “attempted homosexuality” with imprisonment for seven years.
  • Criminalizing “promoting” homosexuality with fines and imprisonment for between five and seven years. This overly-broad provision would criminalize all speech and peaceful assembly for those who advocate on behalf of LGBT citizens in Uganda . It would also criminalize any attempt to repeal or modify the law in the future, as those moves could also be seen as “promoting” homosexuality.
  • Criminalizing “aiding and abetting homosexuality” with seven years imprisonment. This provision could be used against anyone extending counseling, medical care, or otherwise providing aide gay people.
  • Criminalizing the act of obtaining a same-sex marriage abroad with lifetime imprisonment.
  • Adding a clause which forces friends or family members to report LGBT persons to police within 24-hours of learning about that individual’s homosexuality or face fines or imprisonment for up to three years.
  • Penalizing people who run “brothels” with five to seven years imprisonment for renting to LGBT people. However, it defines a brothel as “a house, room, set of rooms or place of any kind for the purposes of homosexuality” instead of the more normal definition of a place where commercial sex work takes place. Anyone’s bedroom would be a “brothel” under this definition, placing landlords and hotel owners in jeopardy for renting to LGBT people.
  • Adding an extra-territorial and extradition provisions, allowing Uganda to prosecute LGBT Ugandans living abroad.
  • Voiding all international treaties, agreements and human rights obligations which conflict with this bill.

Click here to see BTB’s complete coverage of recent anti-gay developments in Uganda.

Comments

POST COMMENT | COMMENT RSS 2.0 | TRACKBACK URL

Priya Lynn
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

I don’t know whether to cry or be furious at how Shore is lying about the purpose of this bill. For him to claim this bill is about ensuring the human rights of gays in accordance with the needs of the country is just a stunning lie.

Priya Lynn
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

Well, I sent Shores a brief email summarizing this bill’s attack on innocent gays and asking him to actually read the bill in the link Jim provided. I don’t know what else to do.

anteros
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

“Teaching God’s unconditional love and grace”

…wtf!?

Timothy Kincaid
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

Finally, let me say that in this instance I am so proud of this nation for standing up for something they believe in regardless of the threats that have come from around the World and especially from the USA who has threatened to pull funding if this bill is passed.

I cannot think of a single atrocity ever committed which could not be described in these terms. The most heinous of evils are always something someone believes in regardless of the opinions of horrified decent people.

Mr. Shores may wish to recall that when a campaign of evil is presented and your response is to endorse that campaign, you are complicit in the act you are endorsing.

AJD
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

It should come as no surprise, anteros. You see, the Talibangelicals honestly and sincerely believe that they “love” us, even though their actions and statements beyond that clearly indicate otherwise, because they have a definition of “love” that differs from that of most people. What they call “love,” most would call “arrogant disdain” or “concerned contempt.”

Rick Brentlinger
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

“Our ministry serves this country sharing and teaching the “Unconditional Love and Grace of God””

Ummm – that God’s love is unconditional is not a Biblical concept and is therefore not an evangelical concept.

Talking about the unconditional love of God is a sound-bite tactic intended to make God palatable to post-Christian culture.

God’s love for humankind today is always mediated through the Cross of Christ. On the Cross, Jesus shed His blood to pay for our sins and reconcile us to God.

Now, if anyone wants the love of God, it is conditionally available by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as our Lord and Savior.

Unconditional means no conditions. According to the Bible, God has never offered His grace and forgiveness unconditionally. I’m just sayin…

Richard Rush
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

Is there a unique alignment of the planets right now? There seems to be a noticeable increase this week in the howling from religious nutjobs. And it’s only Wednesday.

Burr
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

Does he have any evidence that last bolded paragraph? Because that’s the first I’ve ever heard of those “rituals.”

Bart
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

Why allow these literally insane religious people who wouldn’t know Jesus Christ if he decended from heaven and punched them in the face for using his name to promote their disgusting prejudices and phobias, to have any weight in your life? These people are cretins, bottom feeders that are so afflicted and retarded, their minds so addled and conflicted that they can barely make sense. Give them no power because only the ignorant and the weak allow them any influence (yes, I know, there are way too many people like that in the world.

Alex
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

Burr,

I’m not sure about Uganda, but I know that the Sambia tribe of New Guinea requires young boys to drink semen during rite-of-passage rituals. Leland Shores no doubt finds that utterly offensive and immoral, but I’m sure the Sambia would be just as appalled to learn that Shores pretends to drink human blood when he takes the Lord’s Supper!

anteros
February 3rd, 2010 | LINK

Andrew Wommack Ministries clearly doesnt care about Ugandans… they only care about fleecing profits from ignorant poor fundamentalist Ugandans’ pockets and getting a return on investment in Uganda.

That’s why Ssempa’s _blatant_ lies are being echoed in this letter. Lies about the actual bill and it’s purpose. Lies about witchdoctors prescribing “sodomy” as a cure for hiv – that’s a South African phenomenon… in Uganda, witchdoctors have been known to sacrifice kids in rituals, but as far as I know there have been no credible reports in Uganda that support the lies in this letter… it’s all crap from Uganda’s biggest liar – Ssempa.

This guy isnt dumb. He knows the horrific truth about the bill. He knows we are not dumb. He acts like he eventually had no choice but to drink the kool aid after being in Uganda 5 years and marrying a Ugandan (what’s that got to do with this bill or being able to understand the bill?). He deliberately insults our intelligence by refering to Ssempa’s response to Warren, spewing Ssempa’s lies and pathetic pitch of protecting Uganda’s (imperfect and incredibly diverse) culture as though that were reason enough for LGBT Ugandans to suffer under this bill. He does all this, in a cheap attempt to get us to back off and let LGBT Ugandans hang… just so that Andrew Wommack Ministries doesnt lose a cent from its Ugandan investments.

What a shame.

anteros
February 4th, 2010 | LINK

These are the people who could have made all the difference. Given their influence and popularity in Uganda… they could have helped silence crazy people like Ssempa, or at the very least reminded Ugandans why they shouldnt be judging LGBT Ugandans, turning sins into crimes, turning the dominant culture into law, fostering hate and intolerance. Rather than offer silent consent, they rally behind Ssempa to push this bill forward.

It’s really disturbing that people who claim to teach god’s unconditional love and grace can shamelessly support Bahati’s bill… it’s not like those who oppose the bill have not given sound and clear reasons…but those supporting the bill continue to present obscure and untruthful reasons for their support.

This is serious stuff being taken lightly. Reminds me of the peacekeepers’ excuse during the Rwanda genocide in 94… they said that as peacekeepers they were supposed to keep peace, so they couldnt keep peace in Rwanda during the genocide because there was no peace to keep. Serious stuff is about to go down in Uganda, and they know it. They could help save innocent lives, but that would probably interfere the power, influence and profits that they enjoy in Uganda.

It’s not too late for them to change their mind. It’s not too late for Andrew Wommack himself to speak out against the bill, which I am sure he has read. It’s the right thing to do.

SoLeftImRight
February 4th, 2010 | LINK

Miss Wommack looks a little lite in the loafers.

Gerard Iga
February 5th, 2010 | LINK

I don’t know what is wrong with you?Acting like you are so loving and caring yet it is all a veneer for the selfishness.Why are you quiet when there are civil wars here(they are killing each other after all don.t you say?)Where were you when the genocide in Rwanda happened hypocrites,where?where are you when flawed elections take place or when individuals are tortured by government operatives if you care so much for human rights?
I am Ugandan and we are not moral relativists.Your worldview does not fit our culture.Sorry.

anteros
February 5th, 2010 | LINK

Gerard:

It’s not true that the entire world has never raised concerns over any of the issues you mentioned. Detailed reports on various human rights abuses in Uganda have been issued over the years, and people in Uganda and across the world have raised their concerns in response to these reports.

If anything, it’s attitudes like yours that encourage the world to turn a blind eye and let dictatorships impose undemocratic laws disguised as “African solutions to African problems”, such as this proposed legislation. Would you be happier if the whole world remained silent about this bill and all the other issues you mentioned? People are free to voice their concerns over the matters that upset them. Many people around the world continue to voice their concerns over Darfur, blood diamonds, famine, female genital mutilation, access to clean water, malaria, hiv/aids, rape as a weapon in wars… the list is endless. Would you rather nobody cared about African issues and remained silent when troubled by specific things that they feel are unacceptable and detrimental to the wellbeing of fellow human beings?

Ugandan culture may be intolerant towards homosexuality, but culture and law are different things. This is what legislators in the civilized world realised decades ago when they began the global trend of decriminalizing homosexuality. Dont be mistaken, homophobia is a reality in every culture across the world, but that doesnt justify legislation that victimizes harmless LGBT minorities. In fact, it’s precisely because Ugandan culture is so intolerant towards homosexuality that anti-discrimination laws need to be passed to protect innocent LGBT Ugandans from persecution and harassment. Please learn to discern between democracy and majoritarianism.

Amy Cox
April 7th, 2010 | LINK

I wonder how many of really know the motive behind Andrew Wommack’s ministries. If Leland has seen the things that he says that he has, then I believe that he would take the time to read the legislation. If indeed he has done so much good in Uganda, than he would know the influences that he has. Perhaps he will be able to impact the severity of the prejudice and bring some balance to the issue. Of course anyone with any benevolence does not want to spread HIV/AIDS, no one wants to see children and families suffer. I know that balance- not more hate is needed. Everyone NEEDS to look at the entire picture! These are all precious people.

A Quebec Dentist, some rope, (no water?), his 10-year old son, and why “estranged”? Mom called the Police…. « Let'sGetHonestBlog
August 9th, 2010 | LINK

[...] and call it evil, and those who attempt to justify it and call it good. Ministries and leaders like Andrew Wommack, WorldNetDaily’s Molotov Mitchell, and Cliff Kincaid have staunchly defended the bill and have [...]

Bro. Bob
September 28th, 2010 | LINK

Who cares! This issue is a distraction. Spread the Gospel.

Jim Burroway
September 28th, 2010 | LINK

Who cares! This issue is a distraction. Spread the Gospel.

Seriously??? Lying about legislation to kill gay people and supporting it is a “distraction”?

Is it any wonder so many gay people see Christians their mortal enemy with attitudes like this?

the skygod's burden
December 14th, 2010 | LINK

“These issues are so very different from the Globalized mold Western activists and the press are trying to suggest that Uganda squeeze into.”
or that the {etc} are trying to suggest (synagogue in Riyadh) the mideast squeeze into? No doubt Wommack supports stoning of infidels.

“Voiding all international treaties, agreements and human rights obligations which conflict with this bill”
That looks improbably risky. but, Uganda has oil. Money talks.

concerned african
June 30th, 2011 | LINK

such mannerisms like homosexuality werre never in africa.such is influence from the western world and poor africans are doing it for money/desperacy.indeed the world is soon coming to an end!!i wonder why the bill brought up in the first place because this is totally wrong.God punished sodom for that..please take no offence but promoting homosexuality is sounds like illuminati to me!

Richard Rush
June 30th, 2011 | LINK

concerned african,

Haven’t you ever noticed that the nations most accepting of their gay citizens are among the nations ranking highest in every measure of human achievement, prosperity, and general well-being? And haven’t you also noticed that the nations treating gays with vile contempt are among the nations ranking lowest in those measures? Even within the United States a similar correlation can be seen, to some degree, among the states.

If the people of Africa want to improve their lives, they should start with a focus on education to reduce their ignorance, illiteracy, superstitious beliefs, and poverty, rather than scapegoating gays as a solution to their problems. History shows that scapegoating of unpopular minority groups has always been an effective way for people, governments, and religious leaders to deflect responsibility for their own failures.

You need to wake up to the fact that many of Africa’s governmental and religious leaders are demagogues manipulating you to maximize their power and/or wealth.

Thetruth
June 29th, 2012 | LINK

I know many of his “disciples… They are freaks! I know people who works at his offices and phone centers. They have NO LOVE for people or respect… It’s all fake!!! I know what I am talking about.I also lived with few of them.Be aware of them and be careful.

bulian marshal
January 22nd, 2013 | LINK

iam a ugandan living here….so u people who are just talking because you are on line are wrong.1.no one is killing gays 2.why the farce to be treated specially when there is nothing cool about it.
well the system of how homosexuality is being introduced is the issue here, most of our children in schools are raped, a little boy of 6 was raped in the gents …and so on if people would just do this out of their free will do u think it wd turn out to be such a national issue? no but the way these acts were carried out are brutal drugging pples drinks then in the morning you wake to a hurting ass…so concerned african how is being gay leading to education? apart from confusing our children in school with fancy things if only they turn gay.so where u get Lelands response wrong is he wont go saying homosexuality is good because it isnot other wise only one type of people would have existed or would be able to reproduce that way..the so called educated world are the ones who taught us like poles repel so in conclusion, no one is killing homosexuals here on the contrary i see them partying freely so wat if they wont officially get married in our churches they can in yours..much as you have your beliefs so do we as a country respect that and stop exaggerating about them being harrases here.

Priya Lynn
January 22nd, 2013 | LINK

Bulian said “why the farce to be treated specially when there is nothing cool about it.’

You see how messed up your mind is Bulian? You think asking to be treated like everyone else is asking to be “treated specially”. You have to be incredibly twisted to think like that.

David Kato was killed because he dared to speak out against the abuse. We only heard about his murder because he was well known, gays who are murdered that aren’t so well known you never hear about. And your proposed legislation WOULD kill innoncent gays, so don’t give us this “No one is killing gays” B.S.

bulian marshal
January 23rd, 2013 | LINK

now Priya, that is wat was reported…that death had nothing to do with gayism it was a whole different issue come to uganda and do your research as i said donot believe everything posted on line,my mind is not twisted on asking as to why they want special treatment they existed here before and no one cared that is why i asked why now?
it is true no one is killing them but the one who murdered him was gay as well i wont be shocked if they just sacrificed him so as to propel their cause it wont be the first time.
besides the western world provoked the bill to come out with ur ultimatums

Timothy Kincaid
January 23rd, 2013 | LINK

Bulien,

It seems that here at Box Turtle Bulletin, we are more familiar with what goes on in your country than you are. Why is that, do you suppose?

Could it be that we are not looking for excuses not to see what is plain as day?

I suspect that you consider yourself a Christian. So I am going to challenge you with the commandments of Christ. There are only two: love God and love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and prophets are wrapped up in those two commandments. In fact if you read it in context you understand that you CANNOT love God if you don’t love your neighbor and treat him as you wish to be treated.

But here you are angry that your gay neighbor does not want a law passed that would call for his death. (And don’t argue that point if you’ve not read that bill because I have).

Do you want the government to pass a law to execute you? Of course not.

And you would want people to rise up against an unjust law to kill you.

So you have to make a choice: you can either love God or seek to oppress homosexuals. Because according to Jesus you cannot do both.

Which is it? Do you choose to harm gay people or do you choose to treat them the way you want to be treated – EQUAL to you, not lesser – and in doing so love God?

bulian marshal
January 23rd, 2013 | LINK

yes the commandments are true and yes i love my neigbours, i love no matter what you believe in or who you are..the difference is i donot have to love wat they do. i donot personally agree with the bill it is harsh but i donot want to see an act i donot believe in legalised that is the difference. am sori if i offend anyone i am not God and wd not want to be i donot believe such a harsh bill will be passed but one thing i see here is it wont be legal it is hard for a country with traditional values to up en change en embrace some things others find easy to take in, Uganda is a conservative country and some things are just toooo “foreign for the people”
imagine if one just imposes their culture say fgm…they will fight it is their culture and right but others will see it as brutal. in conclusion,gaysim legalised in Uganda is a long shot. we need order otherwise thieves, murderers, would all be openly fighting for their rights as well.homsexuality has always been here but not publicised and we want it to stay that way.

KAKUYO JASON
February 12th, 2013 | LINK

I love all that God is using Andrew wommack for in Uganda lately.
The too true to be good news is sinking greatly n I know it’s gonna consume the entire Uganda wholesomely….
love u Andrew …….

Priya Lynn
February 12th, 2013 | LINK

Right Kakuyo, nothing more wholesome than executing innocent people.

bulian
March 4th, 2013 | LINK

the fact is God is using Andrew and Andrew didnot make the bill, and he advises every one to read the Bible he never brags that the word is from him and never told anyone to follow him he clearly says he is just the teacher of the word….get you bible and read it
you have the knowledge in it besides every one is entitled to their own opinion if you really want to help Uganda enough with ur gay bill there are more pressing issues in our country than having strangers feel they know what we need more. like i keep saying it is becoz it was put as a condition to receive Aid from the western world countries that caused all this in the first place. we love the people but not the acts therefore dont expect people to just get on board with acts that are just……

Priya Lynn
March 4th, 2013 | LINK

“we love the people but not the acts”.

Riiiiigghhhtt. You love the people so much you’ll put them to death or imprison them to demonstrate your love. You have one demonic sense of love bulian.

Dee Bee
April 17th, 2013 | LINK

I knew Leland in Dallas in the 80′s and early 90′s. When I knew him, Leland was happily gay, out loud and proud. Just learned of his sudden death last year. I am starting to question the”sudden pneumonia and organ shut down” death.

JJ Wommack
July 16th, 2013 | LINK

if you are decieved – you will never know you are decieved… THAT BASTARD Andrew Wommack is the BIGGEST DECIEVER who is living in the world today!

AMEN. to the author of this article “Andrew Wommack and His Ministries Want To Kill You”

Rathan Paul
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

God’s Word, the Bible, labels homosexuality as an abomination. On the biological level, it is a deviation that goes against nature. Even at the atomic level, the building blocks of nature, there is a repulsion among ‘like charged’ partcles. The human race has always been open to perversions, and this is perversion which used to be limited to a deviant few, now becoming international policy. Get with it, listen to nature if listeningto God is a problem.-rathan paul

Ben In Oakland
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

Honey, God’s word, the bible, labels eating SHRIMP as an abomination.

YOU will find it very hard to listen to anything with your head stuck up your ass like that.

Priya Lynn
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

Rathan, gaynesss is most certainly not a deviation that goes against nature. Gayness has been found in virtually every animal species in which scientists have looked for it.

Rathan, listen to nature, gayness is natural and normal for a minority of the population.

William
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

Rathan Paul, what a bizarre melange of mindless biblical fundamentalism and pseudo-scientific poppycock.

Richard Rush
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

Rathan, how does anyone’s homosexuality affect you? Why are you such a busybody? Is your own life so empty that you can only find contentment when others are living as you believe they must? – (good luck with that). If you want to live under religious bondage and bizarre notions of nature, go for it, but beyond that, mind your own business.

Timothy Kincaid
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

Richard,

It isn’t so much that my homosexuality impacts Rathan Paul so much. Rather, it is the acceptance of my homosexuality by society that is a threat to him.

Paul believes that when society rejects the teachings of his church, it undermines the social fabric and leaves people without a set of standards by which to weigh appropriate conduct. Abortion, homosexuality, sexualized youth, these all are social differences that veer from what Paul believes is the glue that keeps society together and functioning properly.

Oddly enough, he’s on the right track. It is necessary for society to have a shared sense of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Obviously we need to all agree that – for example – murder is wrong. And while that seems pretty obvious, there have been cultures in which murder of ones personal enemies was laudable and a sign of power (drug cartels and street gangs come to mind).

And ironically, the principles espoused (but often ignored) by his church and many other religions and philosophies are excellent measures by which a society should live: be honest, help others in need, treat people the way that you want to be treated, value justice and fairness, value mercy and forgiveness.

But in some perverted twist of doctrine, all of that is ignored – tossed out the window – despised by people like Rathan Paul. They don’t want principles, they are difficult. You have to apply them to situations, you have to think.

They value, instead, rules, the rules that may have made sense and been an application of these principles in some other time. And they want the world to respect and follow the rules, even if they are in direct contradiction to the principles.

It’s only going to get tougher for the Rathan Pauls and other rules-followers. Social, medical, and technical progress have changed the world to the point where the rules are cruel. And people with decency are increasingly rejecting the rules that Paul’s church, and others, have created. If the rate continues, by the end of this century they’ll cease to exist.

And – though I think you may disagree with this – I think that is a sad thing. We do need social pressure to teach the principles and religion, when done correctly, can be an excellent tool for advancing the principles of justice, mercy, love, and treating others as we’d like to be treated (for example, the Lutheran church in Minnesota’s marriage battle).

If churches find again a connection with their principles and toss out the arcane and archaic rules, they could be of great value. If they don’t, they will disappear. And I see nothing in their place to play that role.

Priya Lynn
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

“And ironically, the principles espoused (but often ignored) by his church and many other religions and philosophies are excellent measures by which a society should live: be honest, help others in need, treat people the way that you want to be treated, value justice and fairness, value mercy and forgiveness.”.

All religions contain teachings in direct contradiction to such principles. Although to a degree some religious offshoots have discarded such contradictory principles none of them have gotten rid of them all and set the moral standard of lack of harm as the guiding principle. And none of them ever will as obedience to a subjective god in order to get into heaven is the primary feature they will never discard.

“If churches find again a connection with their principles and toss out the arcane and archaic rules, they could be of great value. If they don’t, they will disappear. And I see nothing in their place to play that role.”.

They will never toss out all the arcane and archaic rules because they will never accept that the basis of morality is to harm no one and the primary goal of society must be to maximize the benefit and minimize the pain for all in an equal fashion. If they did that they’d cease to be churches and religion would die out – which it will.

The law, government, schools, family, friends, employers, internet chat rooms and so on have and will take the place of churches in providing the pressure needed to teach morality.

Ben in Oakland
August 10th, 2013 | LINK

Timothy, the argument you are making is an old one– morality, which is rules without specific principles, which is principles without SPECIFIC rules.

I don’t think that we need worry about what will replace the alleged roles of churches and religion simply because religion in the real world, whatever it claims it may be, whatever sociologists and apologists claim it may be, is a bureaucracy that serves its own purposes.

Religion can make people better, more moral, more ethical, but so can no religion. Religion also can make people worse, less moral, less ethical, but so can no religion.

I myself see only a few principles to guide my life. Treat there’s well, because that’s how I wish to be treated. Tru my best not to hurt other people. Do no harm if I can avoid it, and make restitution if I do. It all really boiled down to one principle.

Good is better than evil because its nicer.

Papa Kofi
August 26th, 2013 | LINK

Killing homosexuals is wrong, neglecting them or being harsh to them physically, psychologically and emotionally is wrong. However, all Foreign influence to lure countries who are not in support of homosexuality is also WRONG…..Homosexuals need to be helped. If the law is to kill Homos or abuse them…that is bad BUT they should rather be helped. HOMOSEXUALS NEED HELP….LET’S HELP SAVE (HEAL) THEM FROM HOMOSEXUALITY….Don’t promote it…..it is wrong, it is a spiritual disease…DON’T KILL THEM OR ABUSE THEM….but HELP THEM. Don’t promote HOMOSEXUALITY as well. It is a sin.
Jesus loves you if you are reading this…Whether you are a homo or not. He wants to save you.

Priya Lynn
August 26th, 2013 | LINK

Kofi, gayness hurts no one and so is not a wrongdoing. It is immoral to oppress innocent gays so countries that do so are in the wrong and must be condemned.

Ben In Oakland
August 26th, 2013 | LINK

Oh papa… whether you are a homo or not?

Do you propose to perhaps put us into camps to “help” us?

Do you think maybe you have the spiritual disease? Sure seems to so to me.

Richard Rush
August 27th, 2013 | LINK

Papa,

Killing Christians is wrong, neglecting them or being harsh to them physically, psychologically and emotionally is wrong. However, all Foreign influence to lure countries who are not in support of Christianity is also WRONG…..Christians need to be helped. If the law is to kill Christers or abuse them…that is bad BUT they should rather be helped. CHRISTIANS NEED HELP….LET’S HELP SAVE (HEAL) THEM FROM CHRISTIANITY….Don’t promote it…..it is wrong, it is a psychological disease…DON’T KILL THEM OR ABUSE THEM….but HELP THEM. Don’t promote CHRISTIANITY as well. It is sinister.
Julie Christie loves you if you are reading this…Whether you are a Christer or not. She wants to save you.

Leave A Comment

All comments reflect the opinions of commenters only. They are not necessarily those of anyone associated with Box Turtle Bulletin. Comments are subject to our Comments Policy.

(Required)
(Required, never shared)

PLEASE NOTE: All comments are subject to our Comments Policy.