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NOM tours a mostly-empty parking lot

Timothy Kincaid

July 24th, 2010

It’s getting harder for the National Organization for Marriage to spin their Summer for Marriage tour into a success. No one is showing up.

Today they went to Lima, Ohio, a metropolitan area of about 100,000. Lima is heavily Republican and Jim Jordan, their Congressman who they sent back to Congress in 2008 by a 65% vote, is one of the most dedicated anti-marriage legislators in Washington. It’s Saturday.

And today’s turnout was pathetic. As NOM’s Maggie Gallagher tweeted

MG: Met 25 or so new friends at Lima rally,thks!! Tiny,well behaved counter protest. See u Monday in Indianapolis!

NOMtastic!

The Courage Campaign’s tour trackers had a different count

In our most rural tour stop to date, the NOM bus tour has taken us to a parking lot, in front of a closed-down grocery store in Lima, Ohio.

A hand-count of 22 NOM supporters (many of whom were staff) gathered into a cavernous parking lot while 19 equality supporters stood quietly to the right of the rally holding handmade signs in silent, but powerful, protest.

I guess 22-25 is, in Maggie’s terms, “successful” but 19 is “tiny”.

Monday they will be heading to Indianapolis and I wonder if anyone will show up to stand in the heat and humidity. If the attendance trend continues, soon they’ll be able to hold their rallies inside the bus.

UPDATE: One of the counter protesters lists his count of the NOMbies at 32, including the organizers.

Comments

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AdrianT
July 24th, 2010 | LINK

Is there even any point in even having a counter protest?

David C.
July 24th, 2010 | LINK

@AdrianT:

Well, yes. By being there, and in greater numbers than the NOM-nuts, we send a message. If we are careful, we can gain more converts than they can.

CK Born
July 24th, 2010 | LINK

Equality For Ohio had a picnic in Faurot Park in Lima from 2 to 4 today. By the accounts I’ve heard (couldn’t attend due to a meeting in Columbus) it was about the same size as the NOM event. TV coverage on both was balanced (for a change)

Tony P
July 24th, 2010 | LINK

I subscribe to their videos on YouTube and every one I make the effort to point out that they’re failing miserably.

Also make sure I call it the Bigot Cavalcade.

Pliny
July 24th, 2010 | LINK

David:

While I acknowledge your point about showing support for our side, I have to wonder what the effect on the NOMbies might be if we stopped counter protesting and simply sent one or two people with cameras to keep an eye on them.

I suspect very much that the NOM staff is deriving a sense of validation from our protests, much like the Westboro cult.

Just thinking out loud…

Response to Pliny
July 24th, 2010 | LINK

Pliny,

I disagree with your thinking out loud, as follows: NOM thinks of itself as mainstream, as representing “the American people.” The protests show that they have something in common with the Westboro Baptist Church, which of course is far from mainstream. I doubt they find that “validating.” Even the KKK has issued a statement saying they disavow the Westboro Baptist Church.

I bet, actually, that they hate (well-behaved) protestors, and they especially hate the fact that in most of their stops the number of protestors has exceeded the number of NOM supporters (including staffers). The protestors bust any illusion — for either NOM or the media — that NOM is what “America” wants and needs.

I think NOM’s poor performance is a function of that fact that they are not on the side of basic fairness. They are not empathic, they are not decent. I think the values of fairness, empathy, and decency resonate in the hearts of even some of the crustiest people. Millions of straight people of course already support marriage equality. Then there are millions of others who may still feel uncomfortable with the notion, but are also uncomfortable with any sort of “rallying” about it, because, in their hearts, they don’t want to hurt people.

To put it bluntly, you have to be pretty mean to be one of those folks who bothers to show up at the NOM bus tour rally in support of NOM.

NOM really has an uphill battle, even if SSM is still illegal in 45 states. Public opinion momentum is against them. Very significantly, generational momentum is strongly against them. Legal momentum is against them. Momentum for marriage equality in other countries (e.g., Portugal, Argentina) is against them. Laura Bush, even, is against them.

At the same time they have to make a cogent intellectual case that SSM harms or threatens OSM, and that’s very hard to do (cf. Prop 8 trial). Or they can take a “gay is bad” argument, but that runs right up against the reality of our lives, and how, at this point, the great majority of straight people know at least one gay person, and most have discovered that we aren’t at all any sort of “bad” variety of people.

Anyway, again, their being received similarly to Westboro Baptist Church is fitting. As with counter-protests of the WBC in other communities, the protests are a way of making lemonade out of a lemon. They galvanize the well-intentioned and reinforce goodness and decency. (Look on YouTube at the counter-protests against the WBC’s picketing at Gunn High School in California. Amazing.)

I so wish I could travel to Indianapolis on Monday…..

Richard W. Fitch
July 24th, 2010 | LINK

@”Response to Pliny”: Give me any ‘ammunition’ you like and I will carry it with me on Monday. I WILL BE THERE ON THE SOUTH STEPS(counter-protesters are relegated to a different side of the bldg) OF THE CAPITOL BLDG. to give the gNOMes a Rainbow Hoosier welcome!! If you have any particular additional insights or comments, you can send them to my FB wall or email at twiga_riq@yahoo.com

BWB
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

“I guess 22-25 is, in Maggie’s terms, ‘successful’ but 19 is ‘tiny’.”

Maybe she’s speaking in relative terms. 22-25 (latest count: 32) is indeed “successful” compared to their other rallies, and 19 is indeed “tiny” compared to other counter protests…

Timothy Kincaid
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

Richard,

Just make sure that you are upbeat and positive and that your happiness and joy outshines any anger over NOMs message. Be everything they think you are not: happy, confident, and respectful. Be joyous about our community, not angry about them.

Paul in Canada
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

So, call me paranoid or a conspiracy theorist, but something is rotten in Denmark here…… I grew up in the ultra-conservative evangelical movement and I know that they never have a problem with getting people out – their networks are incredible…… so, is NOM purposely keeping the message from getting out so they can show low numbers at their rally’s in a future ‘marketing’ blitz to garner huge support in the fall – just in time for elections?

“Look fellow christians, we’re failing to rally the support behind the sanctity of marriage – see these low turn-outs?! We must rally together against the evil homosexuals……”

I think you get the picture.

Dan
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

Paul in Canada, this is similar to NOM’s Gathering Storm ad, which fell totally flat. It was followed, however, by some shrewd and successful NOM hate-mongering in states like Maine. It even calls to mind John McCain’s first campaign speech, a miserable fail that eventually led up to a Republican convention which rivaled the Democratic convention in viewership.

However, the parodies of the Gathering Storm ad are still on Youtube, and I think even the ad itself is posted. They are still eliciting comments in our favor to this day.

I suspect that this “tour bust” is real, but I’m not totally sure. Like most anti-LGBT groups, NOM is more than capable of deception and in fact uses it routinely. Is any form of workable deception off-limits? I doubt it.

Here’s my two cents. Whether it’s fake or real, we can maximize the “fail” aspect of the tour in four ways. We can stage counter-protests that outnumber their rallies and take the high road, much as we’re doing (we didn’t quite succeed this time – let’s move, people!). We can post Youtube videos of the failed rallies, the yelling in tongues, and the peaceful counterprotests. We can elicit involvement through other sites, as the “tour bust” isn’t being covered much by other LGBT websites.

Finally, I like the idea of treating the “tour bust” exactly like the Westboro protests. If we can help people make the connection, they’ll see that NOM and Westboro are the same underneath: groups fighting an ultimately hopeless battle to stir up animosity against a group that has done nothing to deserve it. We may see other opportunities to make that connection as well.

Joehio
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

Thank you for that image. I just spent the last ten minutes laughing. As an Ohioan, my first thought was “They went to LIMA?! What were they thinking?”

But seriously, there is more to Lima than just that parking lot. They’ve got about 4 or 5 more parking lots. It says something that NOM can’t even attract a crowd there where their presence would presumably not have to compete with any other news event.

Richard Rush
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

I wonder how long it will be until NOM spins their low turnouts as being due to fear of violent attacks by vicious homo-fascists with dogs. Isn’t that how they spun their lack of witnesses willing to testify in the Prop-8 trial?

to Richard
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

#1 is to bring other people!!! And have them bring other people, etc. If you are good at baking cookies, bake some cookies and tell people you are bringing them. Also, bring an ice chest with beverages, and tell people you are doing so. If rain is forecast, gather umbrellas. In other words, make the experience as comfortable as possible, and remove reasons that might deter people from attending (e.g., weather, hunger, thirst, parking, work commitments). Know where bathrooms are, and how to direct people to them.

Otherwise:

American flags are extremely appropriate.

I also like the idea of putting quotations from David Blankenhorn on posters, including the one where he agreed that expanding marriage to same-sex partners would be “more American.”

Also: “Hate is not a family value” – Maggie Gallagher

I don’t have the exact quote, but Maggie Gallagher has also said that she doesn’t support discrimination.

Put stats about Massachusetts’ low divorce rate on a poster.

Put stats or other info thats convey that the sky has not fallen in Canada.

Put supportive quotes from Laura Bush, Dick Cheney, Cindy McCain, Meghan McCain, and even Ron Paul on posters. The late Coretta Scott King was supportive as well.

to Richard
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

#1 = bring others, and have them bring others

Address people’s needs, re transportation, parking, getting off from work, and then have snacks and cold water available, and be able to direct people to the nearest restrooms.

Bring American flags and anything with a flag motif — extremely appropriate.

Put supportive quotes from David Blankenhorn, Laura Bush, etc. on signs.

kosle
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

Ironically, support for traditional marriage, handled well, is support for gays in the true sense in that it would be an encouragement for gays to avoid anal sex and other harmful behaviors. It would be more pro-gay in the best sense, that the kind of opinion expressed on this blog.

Timothy Kincaid
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

kosle,

I see that you have ignored all questions directed towards you and have chosen instead to make a statement.

And it is, most definitely, a rather peculiar statement.

How, exactly, do you suppose that supporting “traditional marriage” would encourage gays to avoid anal sex? Are you under the impression that banning gay people from marrying will somehow magically make them heterosexual?

kosle
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

You can be a homosexual and not act on it and instead reserve your support for the kind of marriage in which the authority and discipline of the male parent complements the nurturance of the female parent.

Burr
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

That doesn’t answer the question. No law can make gay men “not act on it” so it’s idiotic to say that an illogical and unconstitutional ban on some people’s freedom of association will do anything for gay people, even to your desired effect.

Timothy Kincaid
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

Well certainly, kosle, we could each of us remain a virgin for life.

But you have not told us at all how supporting “traditional marriage” is likely to encourage anyone to have a sexless existence.

kosle
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

We’re not talking about anyone’s freedom. We’re talking about the obligation of society to focus exclusively on creating the kind of society that maximizes the well-being of its young members by giving them fathers and mothers. The law is just one form of social and cultural influence that might help those inclined toward homosexuality to avoid that behavior which is in a great many cases a slow-motion homocide and which, if supported by the wider society, something that dilutes or weakens the support that should rightly go to traditional marriage.

Priya Lynn
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

Kosle decades of research has shown that gay couples are just as good, if not better parents than heterosexual couples. Similarly every major mental health organization supports equal marriage for same sex couples and states that gays are better off when they accept their orientation positively. We maximize the well being of societies young members when we allow them to be who they are and provide a supportive framework for them. Oppressing gay people is destructive and counterproductive to obtaining the best society we can have for all.

Timothy Kincaid
July 25th, 2010 | LINK

Well, no, Kosle. We are talking about people’s freedom. That you want to change the subject and talk about fathers and mothers does not change that fact.

And you still have yet to tell us just exactly how disallowing gay couples to register their marriage with the state will in any way influence any gay persons in any way to “avoid that behavior”.

It simply does not flow that denying civil rights will change sexual orientation. Are you under the impression that denying civil equality will magically turn gay people straight?

Further, what are these “many cases” that are a “slow motion homocide”? What are you talking about?

Frankly, kosle, you are writing words but they simply don’t make much sense.

kosle
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

About gay parenting, European sociologist Patricia Morgan reviews 144 published studies on same-sex parenting and concludes that it fosters homosexual behavior, confused gender roles, and increased likelihood of serious psychological problems, later in life.

Once community standards are restored so that sexual activity outside of normal marriage is met with disapproval, such activity will be discouraged.

If you don’t understand the slow-motion homocide comment, you’re just deliberately playing the ostrich.

Richard Rush
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Kosle,

Full equality for gay people benefits ALL of society. Do you honestly believe healthier families would be produced by returning to the days when social pressures compelled most homosexuals into pretending to be straight? Typically, pretending to be straight involves deceiving an opposite-sex person into a marriage. If you have a daughter, would you want her deceived into such a marriage? Or, if not your daughter, would it be acceptable for someone else’s daughter?

If you don’t understand that such deception is a slow-motion route to failed marriages and damaged children, you’re just deliberately playing the ostrich.

Emily K
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

kosle ignores the recent study that shows children of lesbian couples fare BETTER than children of straight couples.

DN
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

“Slow motion homicide…”

Well that’s a new one for my anti-gay rhetoric treasure chest.

Loser.

Mortanius
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

I’d recommend not responding to Kosle. Kosle had managed to hijack the thread to something other than the Benefits of Protesting at a NOM function. By simply making a peaceful presence greater than NOMs, we make a statement that we will not go back in the closet with the argument “what you fags do in the privacy of your own bedroom is your business” not when I am subjected to overt heterosexuality every waking moment of my life and those “heterosexual acts” are allowed in public, i.e. walking hand in hand, kissing, PDA, pictures of wives/husbands/children in the workplace etc. So we should stand up for equality and in numbers greater than NOM.
Sadly I got the wrong date down for NOM in Indy and missed it (I thought it was the 26th) Timothy, can you post a link or dates/locations where they are so others can see please?

Jon
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Moving away from the troll, I wonder if those counterprotesters in Lima felt any Glee-related pressure to come up with a big song-and-dance number for their demonstration?

Richard Rush
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Mortanius, the Indy stop is today, the 26th, according to their own website.

And here is the whole remaining schedule according to NOM Tour Tracker.

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Kosle, Patricia Morgan is a right wing Christian ideologue who chose her conclusions before she reviewed those studies, filtering out the vast majority of evidence that contradicted her desired conclusion and outright lied about what the studies she “reviewed” said. Her paper is a dishonest piece relying on the discredited “researcher” Paul Cameron to make anti-gay points.

For example Morgan says children of gay and lesbians parents demonstrate terrible gender confusion but this is based on her interpretation of a study by Hoeffer (1981) which in fact only argued that some lesbian mothers were less likely to insist their children play with traditionally gender-typed toys.

Morgan also claims that children of lesbian and gay parents are more likely to become gay, stating that the Golombok and Tasker study (1995) shows this which it does not. She also referenced that study saying it showed children of gay and lesbian parents suffered greater and more serious teasing by peers. In fact the study showed that such children were only more likely to have been teased about their mothers’ sexuality and were more likely to recall being teased about their sexuality than other children. The children of lesbian parents were not more likely to have been teased than other children and reported good relationships with their peers (Golombok 2000, Tasker and Golombok 1997).

You will only find studies claiming a poor outcome for children of gay parents from biased Christian writers like Morgan. Decades and hundreds of studies from honest unbiased researchers has demonstrated decisively that children of lesbian and gay parents do just as well, if not better than children of heterosexuals:

GAY AND LESBIAN PARENTING
by – Eileen Durgin-Clinchard, Ph.D.
(January 1996)
This bibliography was received from: Organization: Heller Information Services,
Inc. by way of several other senders on AOL, from an internet service.

“The Lesbian Mother,” by Bernice Goodman [American Journal of Orthopsychiatry,
Vol. 43 (1983), pp. 283-284]

Kirkpatrick, Martha et al; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparative
Study,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 545 (1983) “Homosexual Parents,”
by Brenda Maddox [Psychology Today, February, 1982, pp.66-69]

Riddle, Dorothy I.; “Relating to Children: Gays as Role Models,” 34 Journal of
Social Issues, 38-58 (1978)

“The Avowed Lesbian Mother and Her Right to Child Custody,” by Marilyn Riley,
San Diego Law Review, Vol. 12 (1975), p. 799]

Susoeff, Steve; “Assessing Children’s Best Interests When a Parent is Gay or
Lesbian: Toward a Rational Custody Standard,” 32 UCLA Law Review 852, 896 (1985)

Gibbs, Elizabeth D.; “Psychosocial Development of Children Raised by Lesbian
Mothers: A Review of Research,” 8 Women & Therapy 65 (1988)

Green, Richard; “The Best Interests of the Child With a Lesbian Mother,” 10
Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry & Law 7 (1982)

Turner, Pauline et al; “Parenting in Gay and Lesbian Families,” 1 Journal of Gay
& Lesbian Psychotherapy 55, 57 (1990)

Golombok, Susan; “Children in Lesbian and Single-Parent Households: Psychosexual
and Psychiatric Appraisal,” 24 Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry 551
(1983)

Hoeffer, Beverly; “Children’s Acquisition of Sex-Role Behavior in Lesbian-Mother
Families,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 536 (1981)

Green, Richard; “Sexual Identity of 37 Children Raised by Homosexual or
Transsexual Parents,” 135 American Journal of Psychiatry 692 (1978)

Green, Richard; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparison with Solo
Parent Heterosexual Mothers and their Children,” 15 Archives of Sexual Behavior
167 (1986)

Gottman, Julie Schwartz; “Children of Gay and Lesbian Parents,” 14 Marriage and
Family Review 177 (1989)

Rees, Richard; “A Comparison of Children of Lesbian and Single Heterosexual
Mothers on Three Measures of Socialization,” 40 Dissertation Abstracts
International 3418-B, 3419-B (1979)

Sterkel, Alisa; “Psychosocial Develpment of Children of Lesbian Mothers,” Gay &
Lesbian Parents 75, 81 (Frederick W. Bozett, ed., 1987)

Mucklow, Bonnie M., & Phelan, Gladys K.; “Lesbian and Traditional Mothers’
Responses to Adult Response to Child Behavior and Self-Concept,” 44
Psychological Report 880 (1979)

Whittlin, William A.; “Homosexuality and Child Custody: A Psychiatric
Viewpoint,” 21 Concilation Courts Review 77 (1983)

Herek, Gregory M.; “Myths About Sexual Orientation: A Lawyer’s Guide to Social
Science Research,” 1 Law & Sexuality: A Review of Lesbian & Gay Legal Issues 133
(1991)

Cramer, David; “Gay Parents and Their Children: A Review of the Research and
Practical Implications,” 64 Journal of Counseling & Development 504 (1986)

Wismont, Judith M., & Reame, Nancy E.; “The Lesbian Childbearing Experience:
Assessing Developmental Tasks, 21 Journal of Nursing Scholarship 137 (1989)

Meyer, Cheryl L.; “Legal, Psychological, and Medical Considerations in Lesbian
Parenting,” 2 Law & Sexuality: A Review of Lesbian & Gay Legal Issues 237 (1992)

“In the ‘Best Interests of the Child’ and the Lesbian Mother: A Proposal for
Legislative Change in New York,” 48 Albany Law Review 1021 (1984) Harris &
Turner, “Gay & Lesbian Parents,” 12 Journal of Homosexuality 101 (1985-1986)

Kleber, Howell & Tibbits-Kleber, “The Impact of Parental Homosexuality in Child
Custody Cases: A Review of the Literature,” 14 Bulletin of the American Academy
of Psychiatry & Law 81 (1986)

“The Avowed Lesbian Mother and Her Right to Child Custody: A Constitutional
Challenge That Can No Longer Be Denied,” 12 San Diego Law Review 799 (1975)

“Sexual Orientation and the Law” by the Editors of the Harvard Law Review
(Harvard University Press, 1989)

Green, G. Dorsey, & Bozett, Frederick W., “Lesbian Mothers and Gay Fathers,” in
Homosexuality: Research Implications for Public Policy, ed. by Gonsiorek &
Weinrich (Sage Publications, 1991)

Lewin, E., “Lesbianism and Motherhood: Implications for Child Custody,” 40 Human
Organization 6-14 (1981)

Ricketts, Wendell; “Lesbians and Gay Men as Foster Parents” (University of
Southern Maine, 1992)

Citations showing that children of gay parents are no more likely to grow up
gay:

Golombok, Spencer, & Rutter, Children in Lesbian and Single-Parent Households:
Psychosexual and Psychiatric Appraisal, 24, J. Child Psychology and Psychiatry
551, 568 (1983)

Green, The Best Interests of a Child with a Lesbian Mother, 10 Bull. Am. Acad.
Psychiatry and Law, 7, 13, (1982)

Green, Mandel, Hotveldt, Gray, & Smith, Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A
Comparison with Solo Parent Heterosexual Mothers and Their Children, 15 Archives
Sexual Behav., 167, 181 (1986)

Kirkpatrick, Smith, and Roy, Lesbian Mothers and their Children: A Comparative
Survey, 51 Am. J. Orthopsychiatry 545, 551 (1981)

Bozett, Children of Gay Fathers, in Gay and Lesbian Parents, F. Bozett ed.
(1987)

A review of the reseach on same sex parenting was conducted for the Candian Department of Justice when equal marriage was making its way through the courts. The research team led by Paul Hastings produced a 74 page study that concluded:

“Research has consistently shown little difference in children’s social competence, parental socialization, and family functioning between families of heterosexual parents and families of gay or lesbian parents,” the paper says. “The few differences that do emerge consistently suggest that (1) gay and lesbian couples tend to have a more egalitarian and satisfying balance of child-care tasks than heterosexual couples, (2) gay and lesbian parents may be marginally more effective socialization agents than heterosexual parents, and (3) children with gay or lesbian parents may be more concerned with or even experience more discrimination due to their parents’ sexual orientation, although this does not appear to interfere with their social competence. From the perspective of risk and protective factors, the marginally, more effective socialization practices of gay and lesbian parents might act to protect their children from the adverse effects that could otherwise result from concern about or experience of teasing, bullying and discrimination because of the sexual orientation of their parent(s). Additionally, the marginally more positive home environment that likely results from lesbian and gay parents’ greater support of each other’s childcare activities might provide a marginally more supportive context for children’s development of feelings of security and self-worth.”

Further more the APA, the leading authority on gay parenting states that the reseach overwhelmingly shows the following:

1. Do children of lesbian and gay parents have more problems with sexual identity than do children of heterosexual parents? For instance, do these children develop problems in gender identity and/or in gender role behavior? The answer from research is clear: sexual and gender identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same way among children of lesbian mothers as they do among children of heterosexual parents. Few studies are available regarding children of gay fathers.
2. Do children raised by lesbian or gay parents have problems in personal development in areas other than sexual identity? For example, are the children of lesbian or gay parents more vulnerable to mental breakdown, do they have more behavior problems, or are they less psychologically healthy than other children? Again, studies of personality, self-concept, and behavior problems show few differences between children of lesbian mothers and children of heterosexual parents. Few studies are available regarding children of gay fathers.
3. Are children of lesbian and gay parents likely to have problems with social relationships? For example, will they be teased or otherwise mistreated by their peers? Once more, evidence indicates that children of lesbian and gay parents have normal social relationships with their peers and adults. The picture that emerges from this research shows that children of gay and lesbian parents enjoy a social life that is typical of their age group in terms of involvement with peers, parents, family members, and friends.

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Kosle, Patricia Morgan is a right wing Christian ideologue who chose her conclusions before she reviewed those studies, filtering out the vast majority of evidence that contradicted her desired conclusion and outright lied about what the studies she “reviewed” said. Her paper is a dishonest piece relying on the discredited “researcher” Paul Cameron to make anti-gay points.

For example Morgan says children of gay and lesbians parents demonstrate terrible gender confusion but this is based on her interpretation of a study by Hoeffer (1981) which in fact only argued that some lesbian mothers were less likely to insist their children play with traditionally gender-typed toys.

Morgan also claims that children of lesbian and gay parents are more likely to become gay, stating that the Golombok and Tasker study (1995) shows this which it does not. She also referenced that study saying it showed children of gay and lesbian parents suffered greater and more serious teasing by peers. In fact the study showed that such children were only more likely to have been teased about their mothers’ sexuality and were more likely to recall being teased about their sexuality than other children. The children of lesbian parents were not more likely to have been teased than other children and reported good relationships with their peers (Golombok 2000, Tasker and Golombok 1997).

You will only find studies claiming a poor outcome for children of gay parents from biased Christian writers like Morgan. Decades and hundreds of studies from honest unbiased researchers has demonstrated decisively that children of lesbian and gay parents do just as well, if not better than children of heterosexuals:

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Just a handful of studies showing children of gay parents do just as welll as children of heterosexuals:

GAY AND LESBIAN PARENTING
by – Eileen Durgin-Clinchard, Ph.D.
(January 1996)
This bibliography was received from: Organization: Heller Information Services,
Inc. by way of several other senders on AOL, from an internet service.

“The Lesbian Mother,” by Bernice Goodman [American Journal of Orthopsychiatry,
Vol. 43 (1983), pp. 283-284]

Kirkpatrick, Martha et al; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparative
Study,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 545 (1983) “Homosexual Parents,”
by Brenda Maddox [Psychology Today, February, 1982, pp.66-69]

Riddle, Dorothy I.; “Relating to Children: Gays as Role Models,” 34 Journal of
Social Issues, 38-58 (1978)

“The Avowed Lesbian Mother and Her Right to Child Custody,” by Marilyn Riley,
San Diego Law Review, Vol. 12 (1975), p. 799]

Susoeff, Steve; “Assessing Children’s Best Interests When a Parent is Gay or
Lesbian: Toward a Rational Custody Standard,” 32 UCLA Law Review 852, 896 (1985)

Gibbs, Elizabeth D.; “Psychosocial Development of Children Raised by Lesbian
Mothers: A Review of Research,” 8 Women & Therapy 65 (1988)

Green, Richard; “The Best Interests of the Child With a Lesbian Mother,” 10
Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry & Law 7 (1982)

Turner, Pauline et al; “Parenting in Gay and Lesbian Families,” 1 Journal of Gay
& Lesbian Psychotherapy 55, 57 (1990)

Golombok, Susan; “Children in Lesbian and Single-Parent Households: Psychosexual
and Psychiatric Appraisal,” 24 Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry 551
(1983)

Hoeffer, Beverly; “Children’s Acquisition of Sex-Role Behavior in Lesbian-Mother
Families,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 536 (1981)

Green, Richard; “Sexual Identity of 37 Children Raised by Homosexual or
Transsexual Parents,” 135 American Journal of Psychiatry 692 (1978)

Green, Richard; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparison with Solo
Parent Heterosexual Mothers and their Children,” 15 Archives of Sexual Behavior
167 (1986)

Gottman, Julie Schwartz; “Children of Gay and Lesbian Parents,” 14 Marriage and
Family Review 177 (1989)

Rees, Richard; “A Comparison of Children of Lesbian and Single Heterosexual
Mothers on Three Measures of Socialization,” 40 Dissertation Abstracts
International 3418-B, 3419-B (1979)

Sterkel, Alisa; “Psychosocial Develpment of Children of Lesbian Mothers,” Gay &
Lesbian Parents 75, 81 (Frederick W. Bozett, ed., 1987)

Mucklow, Bonnie M., & Phelan, Gladys K.; “Lesbian and Traditional Mothers’
Responses to Adult Response to Child Behavior and Self-Concept,” 44
Psychological Report 880 (1979)

Whittlin, William A.; “Homosexuality and Child Custody: A Psychiatric
Viewpoint,” 21 Concilation Courts Review 77 (1983)

Herek, Gregory M.; “Myths About Sexual Orientation: A Lawyer’s Guide to Social
Science Research,” 1 Law & Sexuality: A Review of Lesbian & Gay Legal Issues 133
(1991)

Cramer, David; “Gay Parents and Their Children: A Review of the Research and
Practical Implications,” 64 Journal of Counseling & Development 504 (1986)

Wismont, Judith M., & Reame, Nancy E.; “The Lesbian Childbearing Experience:
Assessing Developmental Tasks, 21 Journal of Nursing Scholarship 137 (1989)

Meyer, Cheryl L.; “Legal, Psychological, and Medical Considerations in Lesbian
Parenting,” 2 Law & Sexuality: A Review of Lesbian & Gay Legal Issues 237 (1992)

“In the ‘Best Interests of the Child’ and the Lesbian Mother: A Proposal for
Legislative Change in New York,” 48 Albany Law Review 1021 (1984) Harris &
Turner, “Gay & Lesbian Parents,” 12 Journal of Homosexuality 101 (1985-1986)

Kleber, Howell & Tibbits-Kleber, “The Impact of Parental Homosexuality in Child
Custody Cases: A Review of the Literature,” 14 Bulletin of the American Academy
of Psychiatry & Law 81 (1986)

“The Avowed Lesbian Mother and Her Right to Child Custody: A Constitutional
Challenge That Can No Longer Be Denied,” 12 San Diego Law Review 799 (1975)

“Sexual Orientation and the Law” by the Editors of the Harvard Law Review
(Harvard University Press, 1989)

Green, G. Dorsey, & Bozett, Frederick W., “Lesbian Mothers and Gay Fathers,” in
Homosexuality: Research Implications for Public Policy, ed. by Gonsiorek &
Weinrich (Sage Publications, 1991)

Lewin, E., “Lesbianism and Motherhood: Implications for Child Custody,” 40 Human
Organization 6-14 (1981)

Ricketts, Wendell; “Lesbians and Gay Men as Foster Parents” (University of
Southern Maine, 1992)

Citations showing that children of gay parents are no more likely to grow up
gay:

Golombok, Spencer, & Rutter, Children in Lesbian and Single-Parent Households:
Psychosexual and Psychiatric Appraisal, 24, J. Child Psychology and Psychiatry
551, 568 (1983)

Green, The Best Interests of a Child with a Lesbian Mother, 10 Bull. Am. Acad.
Psychiatry and Law, 7, 13, (1982)

Green, Mandel, Hotveldt, Gray, & Smith, Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A
Comparison with Solo Parent Heterosexual Mothers and Their Children, 15 Archives
Sexual Behav., 167, 181 (1986)

Kirkpatrick, Smith, and Roy, Lesbian Mothers and their Children: A Comparative
Survey, 51 Am. J. Orthopsychiatry 545, 551 (1981)

Bozett, Children of Gay Fathers, in Gay and Lesbian Parents, F. Bozett ed.

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

A review of the reseach on same sex parenting was conducted for the Candian Department of Justice when equal marriage was making its way through the courts. The research team led by Paul Hastings produced a 74 page study that concluded:

“Research has consistently shown little difference in children’s social competence, parental socialization, and family functioning between families of heterosexual parents and families of gay or lesbian parents,” the paper says. “The few differences that do emerge consistently suggest that (1) gay and lesbian couples tend to have a more egalitarian and satisfying balance of child-care tasks than heterosexual couples, (2) gay and lesbian parents may be marginally more effective socialization agents than heterosexual parents, and (3) children with gay or lesbian parents may be more concerned with or even experience more discrimination due to their parents’ sexual orientation, although this does not appear to interfere with their social competence. From the perspective of risk and protective factors, the marginally, more effective socialization practices of gay and lesbian parents might act to protect their children from the adverse effects that could otherwise result from concern about or experience of teasing, bullying and discrimination because of the sexual orientation of their parent(s). Additionally, the marginally more positive home environment that likely results from lesbian and gay parents’ greater support of each other’s childcare activities might provide a marginally more supportive context for children’s development of feelings of security and self-worth.”

Further more the APA, the leading authority on gay parenting states that the reseach overwhelmingly shows the following:

1. Do children of lesbian and gay parents have more problems with sexual identity than do children of heterosexual parents? For instance, do these children develop problems in gender identity and/or in gender role behavior? The answer from research is clear: sexual and gender identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same way among children of lesbian mothers as they do among children of heterosexual parents. Few studies are available regarding children of gay fathers.
2. Do children raised by lesbian or gay parents have problems in personal development in areas other than sexual identity? For example, are the children of lesbian or gay parents more vulnerable to mental breakdown, do they have more behavior problems, or are they less psychologically healthy than other children? Again, studies of personality, self-concept, and behavior problems show few differences between children of lesbian mothers and children of heterosexual parents. Few studies are available regarding children of gay fathers.
3. Are children of lesbian and gay parents likely to have problems with social relationships? For example, will they be teased or otherwise mistreated by their peers? Once more, evidence indicates that children of lesbian and gay parents have normal social relationships with their peers and adults. The picture that emerges from this research shows that children of gay and lesbian parents enjoy a social life that is typical of their age group in terms of involvement with peers, parents, family members, and friends.

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Just a handful of studies showing the children of gay and lesbian parents do just as well as the children of heterosexuals:

“The Lesbian Mother,” by Bernice Goodman [American Journal of Orthopsychiatry,
Vol. 43 (1983), pp. 283-284]

Kirkpatrick, Martha et al; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparative
Study,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 545 (1983) “Homosexual Parents,”
by Brenda Maddox [Psychology Today, February, 1982, pp.66-69]

Riddle, Dorothy I.; “Relating to Children: Gays as Role Models,” 34 Journal of
Social Issues, 38-58 (1978)

“The Avowed Lesbian Mother and Her Right to Child Custody,” by Marilyn Riley,
San Diego Law Review, Vol. 12 (1975), p. 799]

Susoeff, Steve; “Assessing Children’s Best Interests When a Parent is Gay or
Lesbian: Toward a Rational Custody Standard,” 32 UCLA Law Review 852, 896 (1985)

Gibbs, Elizabeth D.; “Psychosocial Development of Children Raised by Lesbian
Mothers: A Review of Research,” 8 Women & Therapy 65 (1988)

Green, Richard; “The Best Interests of the Child With a Lesbian Mother,” 10
Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry & Law 7 (1982)

Turner, Pauline et al; “Parenting in Gay and Lesbian Families,” 1 Journal of Gay
& Lesbian Psychotherapy 55, 57 (1990)

Golombok, Susan; “Children in Lesbian and Single-Parent Households: Psychosexual
and Psychiatric Appraisal,” 24 Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry 551
(1983)

Hoeffer, Beverly; “Children’s Acquisition of Sex-Role Behavior in Lesbian-Mother
Families,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 536 (1981)

Green, Richard; “Sexual Identity of 37 Children Raised by Homosexual or
Transsexual Parents,” 135 American Journal of Psychiatry 692 (1978)

Green, Richard; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparison with Solo
Parent Heterosexual Mothers and their Children,” 15 Archives of Sexual Behavior
167 (1986)

Gottman, Julie Schwartz; “Children of Gay and Lesbian Parents,” 14 Marriage and
Family Review 177 (1989)

Rees, Richard; “A Comparison of Children of Lesbian and Single Heterosexual
Mothers on Three Measures of Socialization,” 40 Dissertation Abstracts
International 3418-B, 3419-B (1979)

Sterkel, Alisa; “Psychosocial Develpment of Children of Lesbian Mothers,” Gay &
Lesbian Parents 75, 81 (Frederick W. Bozett, ed., 1987)

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Just a handful of studies showing the children of same sex parents do just as well as the children of heterosexuals:

“The Lesbian Mother,” by Bernice Goodman [American Journal of Orthopsychiatry,
Vol. 43 (1983), pp. 283-284]

Kirkpatrick, Martha et al; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparative
Study,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 545 (1983) “Homosexual Parents,”
by Brenda Maddox [Psychology Today, February, 1982, pp.66-69]

Riddle, Dorothy I.; “Relating to Children: Gays as Role Models,” 34 Journal of
Social Issues, 38-58 (1978)

“The Avowed Lesbian Mother and Her Right to Child Custody,” by Marilyn Riley,
San Diego Law Review, Vol. 12 (1975), p. 799]

Susoeff, Steve; “Assessing Children’s Best Interests When a Parent is Gay or
Lesbian: Toward a Rational Custody Standard,” 32 UCLA Law Review 852, 896 (1985)

Gibbs, Elizabeth D.; “Psychosocial Development of Children Raised by Lesbian
Mothers: A Review of Research,” 8 Women & Therapy 65 (1988)

Green, Richard; “The Best Interests of the Child With a Lesbian Mother,” 10
Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry & Law 7 (1982)

Turner, Pauline et al; “Parenting in Gay and Lesbian Families,” 1 Journal of Gay
& Lesbian Psychotherapy 55, 57 (1990)

Golombok, Susan; “Children in Lesbian and Single-Parent Households: Psychosexual
and Psychiatric Appraisal,” 24 Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry 551
(1983)

Hoeffer, Beverly; “Children’s Acquisition of Sex-Role Behavior in Lesbian-Mother
Families,” 51 American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 536 (1981)

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Green, Richard; “Sexual Identity of 37 Children Raised by Homosexual or
Transsexual Parents,” 135 American Journal of Psychiatry 692 (1978)

Green, Richard; “Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparison with Solo
Parent Heterosexual Mothers and their Children,” 15 Archives of Sexual Behavior
167 (1986)

Gottman, Julie Schwartz; “Children of Gay and Lesbian Parents,” 14 Marriage and
Family Review 177 (1989)

Rees, Richard; “A Comparison of Children of Lesbian and Single Heterosexual
Mothers on Three Measures of Socialization,” 40 Dissertation Abstracts
International 3418-B, 3419-B (1979)

Sterkel, Alisa; “Psychosocial Develpment of Children of Lesbian Mothers,” Gay &
Lesbian Parents 75, 81 (Frederick W. Bozett, ed., 1987)

Mucklow, Bonnie M., & Phelan, Gladys K.; “Lesbian and Traditional Mothers’
Responses to Adult Response to Child Behavior and Self-Concept,” 44
Psychological Report 880 (1979)

Whittlin, William A.; “Homosexuality and Child Custody: A Psychiatric
Viewpoint,” 21 Concilation Courts Review 77 (1983)

Herek, Gregory M.; “Myths About Sexual Orientation: A Lawyer’s Guide to Social
Science Research,” 1 Law & Sexuality: A Review of Lesbian & Gay Legal Issues 133
(1991)

Cramer, David; “Gay Parents and Their Children: A Review of the Research and
Practical Implications,” 64 Journal of Counseling & Development 504 (1986)

Wismont, Judith M., & Reame, Nancy E.; “The Lesbian Childbearing Experience:
Assessing Developmental Tasks, 21 Journal of Nursing Scholarship 137 (1989)

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

I have aproxiamately another 30 such studies to post but for some reason the software on this site won’t post them.

Timothy Kincaid
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Priya Lynn,

I think you made your point without the extra 30 studies.

Kosle,

If you are arguing for punitive measures against gay people such as those in Iran or proposed in Uganda, then yes, killing people for being gay will drive gay people out of sight. But short of that, gay people will continue to find partners that are the same sex with which to find romance, affection, love and sex. There was no change in the prevalence of gay people upon the abolition of sodomy laws in this country.

Are you proposing executing gay people?

As for the slow-motion homocide comment, no I don’t understand it. I think perhaps you think it obvious due to some myth that you believe about gay people.

I suspect that you actually do believe the nonsense about gay people dying younger. It isn’t true, of course, but I’ve found that those who harbor animus against others will believe anything that justifies their own biases.

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Here are links to the honest research the American Psychological Association uses , research that doesn’t rely on lies about the studies on gay parenting or the outrageous lies of Paul Cameron:

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx

The APA’s Charlotte Patterson sums it up:

“In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children’s psychosocial growth.”

Richard Rush
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Actually, in one regard I would expect children of gays and lesbians, on average, to have some real developmental advantages over children of heterosexuals. After all, gays and lesbians are not the ones who are recklessly producing all the accidental children both outside and inside of marriages. And, certainly, accidental children are much more likely to be disadvantaged in various ways.

Ben in Oakland
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

I read a great many comments here and elsewhere about the massive failure of this NOM hateapalooza. If we measure that by what we think their goals are, then of course it is a failure.

But I have a much different take on it. We also know that most of their arugments are about protecting heterosexual and or religious privilege, not actually aboutprotecting marriage, family, children, faith, or any of it.

Why should thisd tour be any different in m.o.? We already know that NOM is capable of a great deal of dishonesty, and that its most basic arguments have pretty much devolved to “we’re not bigots, we’re victims.” The same old hatred and fear the queers, gays-are-gonna-get-youtr-children fear-mongering and homophobia dressed up in its shiny best.

I think that THAT is the place to start to understand what they are doing, and that it is hardly a fail. It isn’t about us or marriage, any more than their arguments are ever aobut the reality of marriage. This whole bus tour exists for two purposes: to tell their moneybags supporters that see, we’re doing something, thus protecting their cash cow, and to generate (they hope), loud and negative responses so that they have some actual proof for their we’re-the-victims schtick.

If this is the case– and i believe it must be for them to be consistent– then the very best thing that we can do is ignore them entirely. And added bonus would be to show their moneyed supporters that this whole thing is a fail, hopefully while catching one of the pricipals in flagrante dleicto.

It does not do any good to show it to us.

Karen
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Ben,

That makes a great deal of sense.

kosle
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

I’d say this thread demonstrates the main thing I learned getting a master’s in social science — that you can prove pretty much what you want if you design the study carefully. You basically have to return to common sense, if you’re talking about an area where everyone has had a great deal of experience. Anyone raised by his mother would tell you that you can’t just add one of dad’s buddies and have the same kind of love and nurturing. Vice-versa about his father.

As for the slow-motion homicide, well, if you consider that most of the syphilus, AIDS, and a number of other diseases comes from the gay 3%, you’ll understand what I mean.

Burr
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

The whole concept of needing a parent of each gender intimately involved in raising a child is a modern phenomenon. We didn’t have that luxury in the past and things didn’t devolve into “slow motion homicide.”

The only thing that allows STDs to persist is the ignorance of people like you who stupidly focus on people’s sexuality instead of their sexual practices, which can easily be made safer.

Timothy Kincaid
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Ah, yes kosle… you believe in myths. But I prefer facts.

Yes, HIV is significantly higher in the gay community than among heterosexuals. In fact, in 2006 about half (57%) of new HIV transmissions were in men who have sex with men. And with about 3/4 of one percent of gay men contracting the virus in a recent year, that is of very significant concern.

But I think that you misunderstand the extent to which HIV is present within the gay community.

Currently about 12% of gay men (but no gay women) are infected with the HIV virus. Which means, of course, that 88% of gay men and 100% of gay women are not.

Further, studies are showing that for those persons who are on HAART and for whom the drugs are effective, there is currently no predicted reduction in life expectancy.

So while HIV is a serious concern in the gay community, it is certainly not a “slow-motion homicide.”

As for syphilis, that too is a concern. In the early 2000’s the majority of cases in men were in men who have sex with men, though that trend is reversing.

But this too seems to be an inflated risk in your mind.

About one tenth of one percent of men who have sex with men contract syphilis. But, of course, syphilis is treatable and if detected fairly soon is a relatively minor procedure.

Of course the real threat of syphilis is to pregnant women. While it is currently demonstrating less prevalence in women, the consequences are tremendously higher.

So, as the vast majority of gay men never contract HIV or syphilis and as HIV is no longer likely to lead to death and syphilis requires a shot to clear it up, I do not see any evidence of a “slow-motion homicide.”

But here’s the real kicker, kosle. If we encouraged gay men to establish long-term monogamous relationships, then the HIV and syphilis rates would drop even lower. If more stood before God and their community and promised to have and hold for this day forward, then the rates would go lower yet. You can’t pass on an STI when neither partner has one.

You, see, kosle. When you let go of bias and animus and rely of facts instead of myths then your presumptions just don’t hold up.

Priya Lynn
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

Kosle said “Anyone raised by his mother would tell you that you can’t just add one of dad’s buddies and have the same kind of love and nurturing. Vice-versa about his father.”.

Every reputable researcher, the APA and every other major mental and physical health organization disagrees with you. Speaking personally I can think of several buddies who could have replaced either my mother or father and provided better love and nurturing than what I received. I would have happily traded my opposite sex parents for a competent same sex couple.

Timothy Kincaid
July 26th, 2010 | LINK

kosle,

Anyone raised by his mother would tell you that you can’t just add one of dad’s buddies and have the same kind of love and nurturing.

That is absolutely true. One of Dad’s buddies would not offer the same kind of love and nurturing.

But we aren’t talking about Dad’s buddies, are we? We are talking about two people who have committed to each other, who love each other deeply, who see themselves as two halves of a whole, who are there through thick and thin, who complete each other, who would forsake all others and defend each other to the death. We are talking about spouses and parents, not buddies.

And I think that may be why you have difficulty understanding this concept. Because you somehow need to diminish love to “buddies” so as to be able to hold onto your views. Intellectually you know that isn’t true, but you can’t let yourself believe it, can you?

Because if you really and truly thought of gay people as people – not caricatures or stereotypes – then you just couldn’t have the views that you have.

Richard Rush
July 27th, 2010 | LINK

By Kosle:

I’d say this thread demonstrates the main thing I learned getting a master’s in social science — that you can prove pretty much what you want if you design the study carefully. You basically have to return to common sense, if you’re talking about an area where everyone has had a great deal of experience.

By Albert Einstein:

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

kosle
July 27th, 2010 | LINK

“who see themselves as two halves of a whole…”

Ah, you’ve identified precisely the problem. Male and female are complementary in their emotional make-up, as a general rule, and it’s the general rule that creates the healthy families and the lack of it the unhealthy ones.

Timothy Kincaid
July 27th, 2010 | LINK

Yes, kosle, I’ve identified the problem.

When I speak about gay couples, I am speaking from knowledge, experience and education. You, on the other hand, know absolutely nothing whatsoever about gay people. You haven’t even the teensiest tiniest clue about gay families and what makes them healthy. None.

Oddly, though, you seem to think that your argument out of ignorance is going to sway my opinion based in experience.

Don’t you find that peculiar? What would you call someone, kosle, who acted as though their opinion based in blind ignorance were of more value than one based in knowledge, experience and education?

Richard Rush
July 27th, 2010 | LINK

Timothy wrote,

What would you call someone, kosle, who acted as though their opinion based in blind ignorance were of more value than one based in knowledge, experience and education?

oooh! . . . oooh! . . . I know!, I know!!!
But I’m not allowed to say. Sigh.

Ben in Oakland
July 27th, 2010 | LINK

“Male and female are complementary in their emotional make-up, as a general rule”

Whatever the hell that means, except when they aren’t.

I have to add, timothy– I don’t thing kosle knows much aobut heterosexual couples, either.

Priya Lynn
July 28th, 2010 | LINK

Kosle said “Male and female are complementary in their emotional make-up, as a general rule, and it’s the general rule that creates the healthy families and the lack of it the unhealthy ones.”.

And same sex couples are also complementary in their emotional makeup or else they wouldn’t be a couple. Nice to see you acknowledge that the nature of gay couples creates healthy families and the lack of unhealthy ones.

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