Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyDecember 19th, 2011
Speaking to Jay Leno, republican presidential candidate Ron Paul tagged Rick Santorum in one accurate sentence. And no it didn’t include the phrase “frothy mix”.
CNN reports that when Paul was asked on Friday about former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum, he said Santorum does not like “gay people and Muslims.”
Yep, that pretty much covers it.
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Timothy (TRiG)
December 19th, 2011
Some joker subscribed me to Ron Paul’s newsletter. So I’m getting e-mails opening “Dear Fellow Conservative”, followed by a bunch of fairly boring gumph about US politics. And the unsubscribe button doesn’t work.
TRiG.
Al Raymond
December 19th, 2011
I always refer to him as Sick Rantorum. I read once that he said it’s “perfect freedom” to go without health insurance—meaning you should get wiped out by illness, lose your home, and end up on the street!
BlackDog
December 19th, 2011
I’ve never understood people who think it’s some kind of a good thing or a right for someone to die of a preventable or treatable disease…and it’s funny how it’s never the people who say that who are dying.
I bet if Rick got sick he’d be going to the doctor for sure. It’s Okay for HIM to have the US government pay for his health care, as a former senator…
Charles
December 22nd, 2011
I think that Paul is sometimes just crazy, but on this one he absolutely correct.
Mark F.
December 22nd, 2011
I don’t worship the ground Ron Paul walks on, but I really like him overall. Funny that many of his positions are considered “crazy” while it is considered “sane” to run 1.5 trillion dollar deficits, have troops stationed around the world, and have wars going on constantly. It’s also consodered “sane” to throw people in jail indefinately without trial and go after people using and selling marijuana and other drugs (all positions of our “sane” President).
Non-Idiot
December 27th, 2011
A right is something that someone is obligated to abide by. You have a right to your life (which means no one can take it away, without due process) etc. Having healthcare, visiting a doctor, etc. isn’t a right, it’s a service offered between the doctor or hospital and patient. Doctors were far more affordable when governments didn’t “regulate” insurance providers, which is code for allowing insurance providers to have things their way, with the force of law. Which is why there are high premiums, shitty coverage that is always denied when needed, no buying cheaper insurance out of state, etc. The sane position is wanting something different that the same system with an order to buy insurance. That, my friend, is Obama’s healthcare “reform”. But you’d know all of this if you actually researched, and on sites other than “democratrhetoric” dot com.
Priya Lynn
December 27th, 2011
“Non” said “Having healthcare, visiting a doctor, etc. isn’t a right,”.
It is in Canada, and that’s the way it should be. : )
Désirée
December 27th, 2011
Um no Priya , it isn’t a “right” it is a privilege. No is obligated to provide a service to you. All human transactions are done by choice, with free will from each participant. If doctor care were a “right” it could only be so by obligating doctors to offer their services, even if they chose not to. You never have the “right” to force some one else to do something for you.
Priya Lynn
December 27th, 2011
By your logic Desiree there is no right to a fair trial, police protection or free speech.
In Canada health care isn’t a privilege, its a right – doctors are obligated to provide every Canadian with health care. If you don’t want that, knock yourself out, but we demand it in Canada and that’s the way it should be.
Désirée
December 28th, 2011
so the way it should be is that is your right to force other to provide you a service even if they don’t want to?
And free speech is a right because it doesn’t involve forcing anyone else to do anything. I accept only the “negative rights” – the right to life, the right to liberty and the right to property. Anything else must come at some one else’s expense. You cannot claim as a right something that must be provided by someone else. The word just doesn’t mean that. You can say it’s your “right” as a Canadian, but to me, that’s like you insisting the blue sky be called yellow and even getting others to agree with you. Doesn’t change the sky from being blue though.
Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2011
Desiree said “You cannot claim as a right something that must be provided by someone else.”.
Got it. So your bill of rights, the 14th amendment that provides the right to equal treatment under the law is not a right, because people shouldn’t be forced to provide you with equal treatment under the law ; )
Desiree said “so the way it should be is that is your right to force other to provide you a service even if they don’t want to?”.
No one is forced to provide me a service if they don’t want to, if they don’t want to serve me as a doctor or a business person they can quit their job or shut down their business. However, just as if I run a business in the states I am obligated to serve christians christian business owners and doctors rightfully should be obligated to serve law abiding LGBT’s or to get out of that service if they don’t want to do so. Everyone is obligated to provide services to someone they may not want to at some point or another. If you want to be employed or run a business at some point you’re going to be obligated to do things you don’t want to – that’s life, get used to it.
Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2011
The difference in your understanding of what is a right lies in your understanding of what is “government”.
If one believes that government is a real thing and that one can knock on its door and claim one’s rights, then anything can be a right: health care, food, clean water, clean air, Xbox360, digital cable, or anything else one wishes.
If one believes that government is a notion, an idea that represents the collection of individuals, then it gets a bit trickier. Whose door does one show up at for your Xbox360?
Greece is dealing with the reality of those differing perspectives now.
Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2011
Priya Lynn,
Perhaps this best illustrates the differences in these two perspectives:
people shouldn’t be forced to provide you with equal treatment under the law
I think it fair to presume that you think that people should be forced to provide me with equal treatment. I do not.
I believe that the 14th Amendment requires governmental institutions (courts, police, programs, military, etc.) provide me with equal treatment. But if you don’t want to bake my wedding cake, you should not be forced to. In fact, if you want to deny me your lunch counter, you should have that legal right.
I am far more of an individualist than a collectivist.
Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2011
Timothy said “I think it fair to presume that you think that people should be forced to provide me with equal treatment.”.
Earlier I would have agreed with that, but in thinking more deeply I’d say no one is forced to bake you a cake or serve you at a lunch counter, they can close their business or get another job if they don’t want to do that, so they are not being forced as such.
If you agree that the 14th amendment is a right then you agree the government (people) should be forced to provide you with a service. I’d say this doesn’t suddenly become wrong because a person isn’t a government employee which also brings up the issue that in Canada doctors ARE government employees.
Desiree, do you think Americans have a right to a public (1-12) education?
Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2011
Priya Lynn,
“I think it fair to presume that you think that people should be forced to provide me with equal treatment.â€
If one must bake me a wedding cake in order to be allowed to bake anyone a wedding cake, would not this still hold as your underlying perspective? (i.e. You believe that they aren’t forced to bake me a cake but they are forced to provide me with equal treatment)
You and I differ. I believe that the right to bake cakes and offer them for sale resides in individuals rather than in the collective. I believe that the right to self-determination is an individual right and that the collective harm has to be very great before we even begin to consider encroaching on that right.
And, no I don’t believe that the people should be forced to provide me with a service. Not at all. But if the collective does provide a service it must provide that service to all persons equally.
Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2011
Actually, let me take it back one step.
As a human, I really own only one thing: my life. But I need other things: food, clothing, shelter, etc. So I trade a portion of my life (hours doing what someone else wants me to do) for money and use that money to provide for my other needs.
If one argues that the collective (the government, the people, society, etc.) has a claim on my time or my money, then I actually own nothing at all. Not even my life. And that is the definition of slavery.
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