Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyJuly 7th, 2016
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton is leading a coalition of thirteen states in a lawsuit filed against the Obama administration. The lawsuit seeks a permanent injunction against directives from the Justice Department and the Education Department which warn that Title IX funding may be withheld from school districts and colleges that discriminate against transgender students. The particular point of contention among conservatives is whether schools can be compelled to make restrooms and changing rooms available to transgender students according to their gender identity:
The coalition, led by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, has already filed suit against the Obama administration to seek a permanent block of the directive. Wednesday’s request, if approved, would affect not just these states but public schools across the country.
The states filed the case in U.S. District Court in the Northern District of Texas. Harrold Independent School District, just northwest of Wichita Falls, is the official plaintiff on behalf of Texas, but most of the attention in the Lone Star State has fallen on the Fort Worth Independent School District.
There, the superintendent incurred the wrath of Paxton, Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick and other Republican leaders for setting local rules that would allow transgender students to use the bathroom of their choice.
Last week, Paxton issued a nonbinding opinion that the new guidelines for transgender students violate state law by relegating “parents to a subordinate status” in being informed about their children. He also said Fort Worth ISD Superintendent Kent Scribner illegally enforced the rules without the school board’s input.
Scribner countered that the school district’s guidelines for transgender students had been approved by the district five years ago, long before the current controversy.
The thirteen states joining the lawsuit are: Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and West Virginia.
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SharonB
July 7th, 2016
Not all Republicans hate me; but all the people who hate me are Republican.
Troy Conrey
July 7th, 2016
I still count only 13 . . . Texas is included in the list of 13 states.
Jim Burroway
July 7th, 2016
That was an error in the headline.
Al Raymond
July 9th, 2016
What’s to keep a male would-be sex offender from using the phony claim that he’s “really a woman” to get into women’s bathrooms, locker rooms, and even joining them naked in the showers?
Priya Lynn
July 9th, 2016
Its already been explained to you Al. But I’ll indulge your pretending to be ignorant:
Just as in the case of gay refugees seeking asylum from abusive countries the transgender person must prove a history of being transgender with testimony from mental health professionals, family and friends, pictures, documents, etc.
But of course there’s never been a recorded instance of the scenario you describe happening despite laws having been in place in many jurisdictions for many years allowing transgender people to use the bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers of the gender they identify with. So the “concern” you raise is not a valid one.
In the end transgender people living as they wish has no effect whatsoever on non-transgender people and denying them that ability has terrible negative consequences for them. There is no reason to force transgender people into spaces where they likely will be assaulted.
Plus, do you really think women want to share a bathroom, locker room, or shower with female to male transpeople such as these?
http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/2978/2124/original.jpg
https://twitter.com/BikerBecca/status/680415873086038016/photo/1
Al Raymond
July 9th, 2016
Priya—If I’m ignorant, pray do a better job of enlightening me.
You say laws allowing trans people to use facilities of the gender they identify with, have “been in place for many years”—on what planet? Isn’t the above article proof that such laws are still only in the discussion stage and far from settled?
I’ve read of cases where women-born-women are afraid of precisely the situation I referred to earlier, and even some high school girls dread going to the school bathroom for fear of males barging in on them, whether for “laughs” or to commit a crime.
I’ve known many M-to-F transpeople who present outwardly as male, so how can a non-trans woman be expected to know immediately who is trans and who is a non-trans male invading her privacy?
Do you expect trans people to go around carrying all the documentation you describe, in order to gain access to their preferred facility every time?
Your last question misses my point—I’m not talking about F-to-M transpeople intruding on women’s facilities, but rather about non-trans men barging in on such facilities and using the phony excuse that they’re “really women”.
Priya Lynn
July 9th, 2016
Al, such laws allowing trans people to use the facilities of the gender they identify with have been in effect for years in various jurisdictions and cities although not nationally – its never been a problem, trans people have been using the facilities they identify with for years, you’re just pretending its a problem.
I call B.S. on your claim that you’ve known many male to female trans people let alone many male to female trans people who present as male – you’re not even remotely believable.
In jurisdictions with anti-discrimination laws protecting trans people it is still illegal for males to go into women’s rooms to assault or peep on women. Perverts have never required a law allowing trans people to use the bathroom to assault women. If a non-transwoman has been assaulted or peeped on she can still make a complaint even with a law in place that allows trans people to use the bathroom of their choice so there is no concern for a non-transgendered woman.
My last question most certainly does NOT miss the point. You’re demanding that female to male transexuals such as the very masculine men I linked to be forced to use the women’s restroom and transwomen to use the men’s restroom where undoubtedly some will be assaulted. There’s going to be a lot more non transwomen upset with transmen in the women’s room if you force them in there rather than allowing them to use the men’s room.
What you propose is profoundly more disruptive and dangerous than allowing trans people to use the facitlities of the gender they identify with. This will have virtually no effect on non-trans people and will be a huge safety issue for the few trans people such laws alone affect.
Priya Lynn
July 9th, 2016
And no, I don’t expect trans people to carry documentation to allow theme the facilities they identify with. If a non-transwoman suspects a man is using the womens room she can contact the police just as she’s always been able to do.
JEM
July 9th, 2016
Al, as I see it, we humans are capable of dreaming up all sorts of menacing scenarios that rarely, IF EVER, actually occur. I believe that’s where you’re stuck. Male clothing has NEVER prevented a man from entering a woman’s facility and attacking her.
So while the potty patrol is worrying about who’s using the ladies room (because let’s be honest there is no parallel issue in the mens room), the real victims are transwomen, women who present as masculine, and possibly women who are considered uglier than a woman ought to be.
To be blunt about it, Al – mind your own damned business. You are not my protector, and I resent the hell out of you thinking you are in charge of who gets to use the restroom. My sisters and I got this.
If you’re looking for me, I’m the straight, cis-, fat and old(ish) one wearing the “I’ll go with you” button.
Priya Lynn
July 9th, 2016
Thanks Jem : )
Ben in oakland
July 9th, 2016
Mr. Raymond, from your comments, it would seem you are concerned about a heterosexual man dressing up as a woman, and preying heterosexually on women in public restrooms.
Would that be a fair statement of the problem?
You should know that it is heterosexual men who overwhelmingly dress up as the opposite sex. Ask Dear Abby about it. These aremen who identify themselves, and and are identified by their families, Friends, churches, and communities as heterosexual in terms of their interests, experiences, and how they present themselves to the world.As I noted above, these men are going to prey on women in a heterosexual manner.
In short, it seems that it is heterosexual men that you should be concerned about, not trans women.
Yet the law is directed at trans women. There are few, if any cases of trans women assaulting others women. You are posting on a website concerned with gay and trans issues. It would seem that your time would be better spent at a website concerned with heterosexual dysfunction and heterosexual issues.
Or putting it another way, or calling a duvet a duvet, please stop trying to blame gay people for the problems and dysfunctions of heterosexuals. We’re tired of getting blamed for your issues.
Al Raymond
July 10th, 2016
How many supposedly M-to-F transpeople bother to present outwardly as the females they claim to be? There are those who look like hairy apes, don’t bother to disguise their deep male voices, and in a few cases don’t even bother to shave—yet they get mad when I say I find it hard to believe they’re “really women” deep inside!
I have high-school-age nieces who object to the idea of having to share bathrooms, locker rooms, and (conceivably) even showers with people who, regardless of how they think of themselves, to all intents and purposes look like men. I repeat—how can one expect them to decide on the spot which person coming in the room and appearing to be a male, is “really a woman”?
And PS—one doesn’t have to be heterosexual to love one’s nieces and understand their concerns. Being in the LGBT community and having sympathy for the struggles of our trans friends, doesn’t mean we have to march in step with every one of their demands.
Getting abusive and smearing people as heterosexual wannabes and other personal attacks, usually signals awareness of flaws in one’s own arguments.
Ben in oakland
July 10th, 2016
I see you did not actually address any of my points, especially the ones about “reality”, but went right for stereotypes.
It’s a good indication that you Are aware of the flaws in your argument.
Priya Lynn
July 10th, 2016
Al said “How many supposedly M-to-F transpeople bother to present outwardly as the females they claim to be?”.
Virtually all of them. I’ve never seen one that didn’t. You are simply unbelievable when you claim that isn’t the case.
Al said “I have high-school-age nieces who object to the idea of having to share bathrooms, locker rooms, and (conceivably) even showers with people who, regardless of how they think of themselves, to all intents and purposes look like men.”.
If that’s the case then why do you support laws that will require transwomen to use the men’s room and transmen to use the women’s room?
You’re demanding that very masculine looking transmen such as the ones below be forced to use the women’s room. How will your high school nieces feel when they have to share bathrooms, lockerooms, and showsrs with these transmen?
http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/2978/2124/original.jpg
https://twitter.com/BikerBecca/status/680415873086038016/photo/1
That you haven’t responded to this shows you don’t want to acknowledge the reality that what you’re advocating would actually be worse for biological women.
Priya Lynn
July 10th, 2016
And Al,
Don’t forget, your nieces have already been sharing the bathroom with transwomen and haven’t been aware of it. Transwomen have been quietly using the women’s bathroom for decades and it hasn’t bothered anyone. Its only since bigots started passing laws requiring transpeople to use the bathroom of the sex they were born as that people like you and your nieces started worrying about what’s been going on all along.
Ben in Oakland
July 10th, 2016
And Al,
There are those who look like hairy apes, don’t bother to disguise their deep male voices, and in a few cases don’t even bother to shave—yet they get mad when I say I find it hard to believe they’re “really women” deep inside!
This is so far from the reality of every single trans person I have ever met as to make me wonder exactly where you get your information. Perhaps you could show us documentation of the legions of trans people who are doing this sort of things. surely, there ought to be some news stories.
could they live in the same towns as the legions of mother-makers, sister-shaggers, brother-bangers, and father f–kers that the Christian/conservative right assured us were just waiting for gay marriage to be legal?
Priya Lynn
July 10th, 2016
If Al isn’t lying about hairy transwomen that don’t shave I’m sure what is happening is that some gay men he knows are telling him they are women inside just to mess with him and Al’s too stupid to see they’re just toying with him.
Priya Lynn
July 10th, 2016
Here you go Al.
Several states have had anti-discrimination laws that protect transpeople going back as far as 1993:
http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533
Al Raymond
July 10th, 2016
The few transmen I know are probably little or no threat to anyone’s nieces, daughters, girlfriends, wives, etc. That may also be true of GENUINE transwomen.
It’s the heterosexual NON-transwomen with sex abuse on their minds, using women’s facilities under false pretenses, that are cause for concern. How to guard against that? So far no convincing answer.
Priya—thanks for the comments on my intelligence and honesty. Ask a few questions in hopes of being better informed, and get abuse in return. How to “win hearts and minds”—drive people into the arms of the Republicans!
Priya Lynn
July 10th, 2016
Al, as I posted, there’s been many jurisdications over the years that allow people to use the bathrooms of the gender they identify with and there’s never been a problem with “heterosexual NON-transwomen with sex abuse on their minds, using women’s facilities under false pretenses” – that just doesn’t happen so stop pretending that’s an excuse to force transwomen into men’s bathrooms where they will have the sh*t beat out of them.
Steve
July 10th, 2016
It’s illegal for anyone to assault a woman in the ladies’ room, even in states and cities where transgender civil rights laws have been passed. Even cis women assaulting each other, much less the pervy het men scenario you want to use to punish trans women. I find it funny that I’ve seen far more anxiety about that scenario from men than actual women.
Ben in Oakland
July 10th, 2016
“It’s the heterosexual NON-transwomen with sex abuse on their minds, using women’s facilities under false pretenses, that are cause for concern. How to guard against that? So far no convincing answer.”
Yet the answer that stigmatizes the very people you admit aren’t a threat does convince you. Do you have any evidence that this is a normal occurrence? Doesn’t that tell you anything?
You can pass a law which forbids sexual assaults in the women’s restrooms. Absolutely. We already have those laws, and I haven’t heard of any epidemic of hetero pervs hanging around women’s restrooms and assaulting them. So they must be working.
What you cannot do is guard against it, not unless you are willing to post an actual guard in every woman’s restroom. You can warn women to be aware, but the hetero perv with assault on his mind you cannot speak to.
The real question is, why are you choosing a fake fear to vent your anxieties on, with a fake solution, instead of a real one?
Ben in oakland
July 11th, 2016
Here you go, al Raymond. From the Arizona republic.
Chris Simcox, the former leader of the Minuteman border vigilante group, was sentenced to 19.5 years in prison Monday, bringing an end to a sex-abuse case involving two girls under 10.
A Maricopa County Superior Court jury found Simcox, 55, guilty last month of two counts of child molestation and one count of furnishing obscene material to a minor after a three-week trial. The jury composed of three women and nine men, found him not guilty on three other counts of sexual conduct with a minor — a charge that carries a mandatory sentence of life in prison.
Simcox was arrested in 2013 after two girls, ages 5 and 6, accused him of touching them inappropriately between 2012 and 2013.
Simcox was sentenced to two concurrent sentences of 17 years for each of the molestation counts and an additional 2.5-year sentence for furnishing obscene materials to a minor.
A kindergarten teacher for 13 years, Simcox sought to unseat Sen. John McCain in 2010, but withdrew from the race to endorse then-US Rep. J.D. Hayworth, who now hosts a television show for the right wing site Newsmax.
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